" CLUBS IN DEBT/FINANCIAL TROUBLE "

Do a little research as to who owns that company.

I have OTH is a hedgefund, high risk investment for high profit. I notice you haven't challenged anything relating to the con on the ratepayers of Swansea. [/quote]

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/69e8a ... order?ft=1

As for your other comments, the stadium is run by the stadium management company which is equally 1/3 owned by the council, SCFC and the Ospreys. A percentage of each gate goes into this company to cover all running costs of the stadium. Only if this company runs at a profit does it pay anything to the council, as per the legal agreement between all 3 parties.

The building of the stadium was paid for by the sale of the retail land opposite.

Do a little research as to who owns that company.

I have OTH is a hedgefund, high risk investment for high profit. I notice you haven't challenged anything relating to the con on the ratepayers of Swansea.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/69e8a ... order?ft=1

As for your other comments, the stadium is run by the stadium management company which is equally 1/3 owned by the council, SCFC and the Ospreys. A percentage of each gate goes into this company to cover all running costs of the stadium. Only if this company runs at a profit does it pay anything to the council, as per the legal agreement between all 3 parties.

The building of the stadium was paid for by the sale of the retail land opposite.[/quote]


And you believe that

Here we go

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -25543490/

And what about the chattells mortgage £2.37 what was sold to pay that off.

Sort of on topic - had a bloke from club call me bout 8 tonight asking for funds for youth accademy. Had a tidy chat with him and stated by contribution to club is limited to season ticket, the odd piece of merchandise and a few pints every other sat. Thought it was a bit odd call though. Surely they aint running the club accademy off donations.

Do a little research as to who owns that company.

I have OTH is a hedgefund, high risk investment for high profit. I notice you haven't challenged anything relating to the con on the ratepayers of Swansea.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/69e8a ... order?ft=1

As for your other comments, the stadium is run by the stadium management company which is equally 1/3 owned by the council, SCFC and the Ospreys. A percentage of each gate goes into this company to cover all running costs of the stadium. Only if this company runs at a profit does it pay anything to the council, as per the legal agreement between all 3 parties.

The building of the stadium was paid for by the sale of the retail land opposite.

And you believe that

Here we go

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -25543490/

And what about the chattells mortgage £2.37 what was sold to pay that off. [/quote]


Err, that article backs up everything I said?

As for the extra for fitting out, this was a contractual obligation of the council in the building of the council and they had a shortfall so hence the mortgage.

I notice you haven't mentioned anything about the time travelling Martinez and Scotland fees?

What a post
This will be winging its way to all the Jacks in work Monday....



It really does amuse me when I read about the Jacks being a well run club and debt free, I would agree about being a well run club but being debt free is absolutely nonsense.

It is a fact that SCFC took out a debenture mortgage with OTH Ltd (Hedge Fund) of 20 Bedford Road London on 30th December 2009 secured amongst other things ALL assests including players. Therefore any money received from the sale of say Pratley would go to this company, unless they agree otherwise. If anyone wamts to know how dangerous debenture mortgages are they should call Simon Jordan.

Swansea city also lost just short of £1m for the year ending May 2009, this despite receiving compensation for St Bob and the transfer fee for Jason Scotland from Wigan. I understand their loss is worse, although not on a par with ours, for the year ending May 2010.

I say they are a well run club because of the con that is taking place against the ratepayers of Swansea, who are the owners of the Liberty Stadium.

Besides pay £33m to build the Liberty Stadium the Council also took out a Chattells mortgage for £2.37m to fit out the hospitality area of the Liberty. All tables, Chairs, Plates, Cups, Knives, Forks and off course the ice machine for the home dressing room together with the 350v electric supply was paid for by this mortgage.

To date not a single penny has been paid off this mortgage although SCFC receive approx £1m per year in revenue from the hopspitality areas where the tables, chairs, knives, forks etc are used. The councils auditors have been questioning this situation for years and now the council have agreed to write off the mortgage. How much did Cardiff City pay to fit out the hospitality areas at CCS, I know some are still waiting to be paid, but how much income does our club receive absolutely nothing. PMG gets it all.

That takes you to the next point Swansea Council paid the cost of building the Liberty Stadium and to date have not received a single penny in repayment. Overall to date SCFC have received more money than they have paid for using the Liberty. SCFC also have their club store rent free from the Liberty Stadium or should I say council because the Council pay all the electicity and receive no rates or rent, the council also paid for all signage on the store it's absolutely unbelievable.

All match day stewards, match day policing, ticket office staff are paid for by the Stadium Management Company, Cardiff City pay this themselves. All income from non football events is paid into the stadium management company accounts and used to offset the running costs for sporting events. Whilst the owners still wait to receive a single penny in return for their £33m investment.

Believe me SCFC would be bankrupt without this con but it won't last forever because by the time this government has cut it's support to the Welsh Assembly and they pass the cut onto the local councils in Wales, Swansea County Council will have such a hole in it's finances that they will be forced to do something about it.

Ask yourself this what would a £2-3m annual subsidy from Cardiff Council do for our club[/i][/i]

As for your other comments, the stadium is run by the stadium management company which is equally 1/3 owned by the council, SCFC and the Ospreys. A percentage of each gate goes into this company to cover all running costs of the stadium. Only if this company runs at a profit does it pay anything to the council, as per the legal agreement between all 3 parties.

The building of the stadium was paid for by the sale of the retail land opposite.[/quote]


And you believe that

Here we go

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -25543490/

And what about the chattells mortgage £2.37 what was sold to pay that off. [/quote]


Err, that article backs up everything I said?

As for the extra for fitting out, this was a contractual obligation of the council in the building of the council and they had a shortfall so hence the mortgage.

I notice you haven't mentioned anything about the time travelling Martinez and Scotland fees? [/quote]


Can you not see that this "Percentage of the Gate" should be enough to ensure the stadium makes a profit and thereby deliver a return on the investment for the owner. Can you honestly not see that this percentage figure whatever it is needs to increase and not by 1 or 2 points.

So as I understand it if these mythical build problems were resolved how much money could the council reasonably be expected to receive, or this wet floor nonsense is that why the stadium isn't making money or is it more simple than that.

As the owner of a property what could you reasonably expect as a return on your investment 5%, if thats the figure the council are already down by over £7m, and believe me 5% is a poor return. I bet if it were your money you would have a different view.

As for your other comments, the stadium is run by the stadium management company which is equally 1/3 owned by the council, SCFC and the Ospreys. A percentage of each gate goes into this company to cover all running costs of the stadium. Only if this company runs at a profit does it pay anything to the council, as per the legal agreement between all 3 parties.

The building of the stadium was paid for by the sale of the retail land opposite.

And you believe that

Here we go

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -25543490/

And what about the chattells mortgage £2.37 what was sold to pay that off. [/quote]


Err, that article backs up everything I said?

As for the extra for fitting out, this was a contractual obligation of the council in the building of the council and they had a shortfall so hence the mortgage.

I notice you haven't mentioned anything about the time travelling Martinez and Scotland fees? [/quote]


Can you not see that this "Percentage of the Gate" should be enough to ensure the stadium makes a profit and thereby deliver a return on the investment for the owner. Can you honestly not see that this percentage figure whatever it is needs to increase and not by 1 or 2 points.

So as I understand it if these mythical build problems were resolved how much money could the council reasonably be expected to receive, or this wet floor nonsense is that why the stadium isn't making money or is it more simple than that.

As the owner of a property what could you reasonably expect as a return on your investment 5%, if thats the figure the council are already down by over £7m, and believe me 5% is a poor return. I bet if it were your money you would have a different view.[/quote]

Manipulated figures to ensure the football and rugby clubs dont have to pay anything out.

I wonder what this % of gate receipts really is. Given that SCFC are getting their best gates for 30 years (or longer-maybe ever if you take out 1 or 2 seasons) then its really hard to see how they CANT be making a surplus - unless either

a. the % was set at an unachievable level (dont forget the Jacks ave of 14-15k is 3/4 of their capacity after segregation of 19k - odd with an away end which can hold 3000ish and usually has less than 500, so not much room for more.

or

b. someone has been manipulating the COST figures, including stuff which was never intended to be 'stadium costs' to ensure they dont have to pay anything over ?

Manipulated figures to ensure the football and rugby clubs dont have to pay anything out.

I wonder what this % of gate receipts really is. Given that SCFC are getting their best gates for 30 years (or longer-maybe ever if you take out 1 or 2 seasons) then its really hard to see how they CANT be making a surplus - unless either

a. the % was set at an unachievable level (dont forget the Jacks ave of 14-15k is 3/4 of their capacity after segregation of 19k - odd with an away end which can hold 3000ish and usually has less than 500, so not much room for more.

or

b. someone has been manipulating the COST figures, including stuff which was never intended to be 'stadium costs' to ensure they dont have to pay anything over ?

You're forgetting the most likely answer which is:

c. The ospreys crowds are awful and aren't contributing enough through their % of gate to allow the Management Co. to make a profit.

we have the same probs with the blues's ...... but hey thats just part of the game !!!

Manipulated figures to ensure the football and rugby clubs dont have to pay anything out.

I wonder what this % of gate receipts really is. Given that SCFC are getting their best gates for 30 years (or longer-maybe ever if you take out 1 or 2 seasons) then its really hard to see how they CANT be making a surplus - unless either

a. the % was set at an unachievable level (dont forget the Jacks ave of 14-15k is 3/4 of their capacity after segregation of 19k - odd with an away end which can hold 3000ish and usually has less than 500, so not much room for more.

or

b. someone has been manipulating the COST figures, including stuff which was never intended to be 'stadium costs' to ensure they dont have to pay anything over ?

You're forgetting the most likely answer which is:

c. The ospreys crowds are awful and aren't contributing enough through their % of gate to allow the Management Co. to make a profit.

They are shit but surely the Stadium management company werent expecting much better. They won their bleeding league last year, so they arent ever going to improve. So we are back to a or b.

Manipulated figures to ensure the football and rugby clubs dont have to pay anything out.

I wonder what this % of gate receipts really is. Given that SCFC are getting their best gates for 30 years (or longer-maybe ever if you take out 1 or 2 seasons) then its really hard to see how they CANT be making a surplus - unless either

a. the % was set at an unachievable level (dont forget the Jacks ave of 14-15k is 3/4 of their capacity after segregation of 19k - odd with an away end which can hold 3000ish and usually has less than 500, so not much room for more.

or

b. someone has been manipulating the COST figures, including stuff which was never intended to be 'stadium costs' to ensure they dont have to pay anything over ?

You're forgetting the most likely answer which is:

c. The ospreys crowds are awful and aren't contributing enough through their % of gate to allow the Management Co. to make a profit.

They are shit but surely the Stadium management company werent expecting much better. They won their bleeding league last year, so they arent ever going to improve. So we are back to a or b.

The percentages would have been agreed before the clubs moved into the stadium and it's almost certain the Ospreys would have been expecting bigger crowds. Either way, the Swans are contributing far more than them and have done ever since the stadium opened.

Just putting the Swansea issues aside for one moment, and back to Annis' orignal point.

A high percentage of football clubs are running with considerable debts. As long as clubs can service those debts by their incomes, then this is not a problem - thats how most businesses work. Broadcasters such as SKY are as dependent on football for viewing figures/subscribers and are unlikely to reduce substantially their financial input to the game because of this. (Who would bother to pay for SKY without its excellent sport coverage?)

The main problem facing clubs is the threat of relegation and therefore a loss of income = this is what encourages clubs to gamble by taking on more debt than they can afford. The only way around this is to banish relegation by creating a closed shop of franchised teams.

My guess is that some time in the next decade, the Premier League will do this, and if you are caught out of the league when that happens then tough. This is what was done in Rugby League, which has continued to grow year on year since the formation of the Super League 15 years ago. Famous clubs such as Widnes, Leigh and Featherstone remain outside the top flight. The Premier League could then invite Celtic and Rangers, and perhaps eventually PSV or Bayern Munich or Real Madrid and Barcelona - particularly clubs from countries dominated by one or two clubs.

There is probably enough money and interest for 2 divisions, although whether you have promotion and relegation just between these two divisions or run an East and West division like that used in American sport with and end of season playoff system is a further discussion point.

I'm not saying football will change this way, but I suspect franchising in some form is the future, whether we like it or not.

Also, by abolishing relegation you could then try to impose some sort of salary cap, as no team has to worry if they have one bad season about losing their place at the top table.

Manipulated figures to ensure the football and rugby clubs dont have to pay anything out.

I wonder what this % of gate receipts really is. Given that SCFC are getting their best gates for 30 years (or longer-maybe ever if you take out 1 or 2 seasons) then its really hard to see how they CANT be making a surplus - unless either

a. the % was set at an unachievable level (dont forget the Jacks ave of 14-15k is 3/4 of their capacity after segregation of 19k - odd with an away end which can hold 3000ish and usually has less than 500, so not much room for more.

or

b. someone has been manipulating the COST figures, including stuff which was never intended to be 'stadium costs' to ensure they dont have to pay anything over ?

You're forgetting the most likely answer which is:

c. The ospreys crowds are awful and aren't contributing enough through their % of gate to allow the Management Co. to make a profit.


They are shit but surely the Stadium management company werent expecting much better. They won their bleeding league last year, so they arent ever going to improve. So we are back to a or b

The percentages would have been agreed before the clubs moved into the stadium and it's almost certain the Ospreys would have been expecting bigger crowds. Either way, the Swans are contributing far more than them and have done ever since the stadium opened.[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Well, given Swansea City were in the lower leagues when it opened they must have been MILES out with the rugby crowds.
Either way, given the length of time you have bene in the stadium then the levels are set at an unatainable level for 2 relatively poorly supported clubs (in comparison to us that is )

Ospreys gates

2010/11 7378
2009/10 8455
2008/09 8405
2007/08 8797
2006/07 9027
2005/06 8373
2004/05 5454
2003/04 3935

Considering how low the first couple of seasons figures are why would the stadium company have estimated anything above the 7-9000 they have got over this period. Are they really that stupid ?

First season for both clubs at the Liberty was in 2005/06

Swansea's average that season 14112 (8458 previous season at the Vetch when they went up as Champions) followed by 12720 13520,

So given that both clubs had a massive increase in crowds since moving to the Liberty and have not since made a profit in one season dont you think that maybe somebody is taking the piss ?

Well, given Swansea City were in the lower leagues when it opened they must have been MILES out with the rugby crowds.
Either way, given the length of time you have bene in the stadium then the levels are set at an unatainable level for 2 relatively poorly supported clubs (in comparison to us that is )

Ospreys gates

2010/11 7378
2009/10 8455
2008/09 8405
2007/08 8797
2006/07 9027
2005/06 8373
2004/05 5454
2003/04 3935

Considering how low the first couple of seasons figures are why would the stadium company have estimated anything above the 7-9000 they have got over this period. Are they really that stupid ?

First season for both clubs at the Liberty was in 2005/06

Swansea's average that season 14112 (8458 previous season at the Vetch when they went up as Champions) followed by 12720 13520,

So given that both clubs had a massive increase in crowds since moving to the Liberty and have not since made a profit in one season dont you think that maybe somebody is taking the piss ?

No, I just don't think the system is designed to make a profit. The Council will be more than happy if the stadium runs on an even keel with the contributions from both clubs paying wholly towards any upkeep that may be required and all match day costs. Which is the current state of affairs.

Well, given Swansea City were in the lower leagues when it opened they must have been MILES out with the rugby crowds.
Either way, given the length of time you have bene in the stadium then the levels are set at an unatainable level for 2 relatively poorly supported clubs (in comparison to us that is )

Ospreys gates

2010/11 7378
2009/10 8455
2008/09 8405
2007/08 8797
2006/07 9027
2005/06 8373
2004/05 5454
2003/04 3935

Considering how low the first couple of seasons figures are why would the stadium company have estimated anything above the 7-9000 they have got over this period. Are they really that stupid ?

First season for both clubs at the Liberty was in 2005/06

Swansea's average that season 14112 (8458 previous season at the Vetch when they went up as Champions) followed by 12720 13520,

So given that both clubs had a massive increase in crowds since moving to the Liberty and have not since made a profit in one season dont you think that maybe somebody is taking the piss ?

No, I just don't think the system is designed to make a profit. The Council will be more than happy if the stadium runs on an even keel with the contributions from both clubs paying wholly towards any upkeep that may be required and all match day costs. Which is the current state of affairs.

You do realise that if its NOT making a profit then its 99.9% certain to be making a loss ?
It would be an incredible co-incidence if the stadium broke even every single year.

Also as you are an expert in this, WHAT is the % of gate receipts which go toward running costs ? 10, 20, 30 ?

You do realise that if its NOT making a profit then its 99.9% certain to be making a loss ?
It would be an incredible co-incidence if the stadium broke even every single year.

Also as you are an expert in this, WHAT is the % of gate receipts which go toward running costs ? 10, 20, 30 ?

I didn't claim to be an expert, I simply know what is out in the public domain.

what does our debt currently roughly stand at?

Milly it Currently stands at about £30 Mill if All paid before Dec 31st, I found out last night at a meeting, Ours could go to about £50 million after Xmas if Certain Current Debts are not Sorted in Full.

lets hope they get it sorted then hey

It really does amuse me when I read about the Jacks being a well run club and debt free, I would agree about being a well run club but being debt free is absolutely nonsense.

It is a fact that SCFC took out a debenture mortgage with OTH Ltd (Hedge Fund) of 20 Bedford Road London on 30th December 2009 secured amongst other things ALL assests including players. Therefore any money received from the sale of say Pratley would go to this company, unless they agree otherwise. If anyone wamts to know how dangerous debenture mortgages are they should call Simon Jordan.

Swansea city also lost just short of £1m for the year ending May 2009, this despite receiving compensation for St Bob and the transfer fee for Jason Scotland from Wigan. I understand their loss is worse, although not on a par with ours, for the year ending May 2010.

I say they are a well run club because of the con that is taking place against the ratepayers of Swansea, who are the owners of the Liberty Stadium.

Besides pay £33m to build the Liberty Stadium the Council also took out a Chattells mortgage for £2.37m to fit out the hospitality area of the Liberty. All tables, Chairs, Plates, Cups, Knives, Forks and off course the ice machine for the home dressing room together with the 350v electric supply was paid for by this mortgage.

To date not a single penny has been paid off this mortgage although SCFC receive approx £1m per year in revenue from the hopspitality areas where the tables, chairs, knives, forks etc are used. The councils auditors have been questioning this situation for years and now the council have agreed to write off the mortgage. How much did Cardiff City pay to fit out the hospitality areas at CCS, I know some are still waiting to be paid, but how much income does our club receive absolutely nothing. PMG gets it all.

That takes you to the next point Swansea Council paid the cost of building the Liberty Stadium and to date have not received a single penny in repayment. Overall to date SCFC have received more money than they have paid for using the Liberty. SCFC also have their club store rent free from the Liberty Stadium or should I say council because the Council pay all the electicity and receive no rates or rent, the council also paid for all signage on the store it's absolutely unbelievable.

All match day stewards, match day policing, ticket office staff are paid for by the Stadium Management Company, Cardiff City pay this themselves. All income from non football events is paid into the stadium management company accounts and used to offset the running costs for sporting events. Whilst the owners still wait to receive a single penny in return for their £33m investment.

Believe me SCFC would be bankrupt without this con but it won't last forever because by the time this government has cut it's support to the Welsh Assembly and they pass the cut onto the local councils in Wales, Swansea County Council will have such a hole in it's finances that they will be forced to do something about it.

Ask yourself this what would a £2-3m annual subsidy from Cardiff Council do for our club.

What an excellent posy, very informative and quite startling, I think I may just bookmark this one for future reference

Superb post, does anyone know non Swansea City supporters in Swansea, maybe they could start writing to their local papers MPs etc ...............

Bolton are £93 Million in Debt SO DOES THE PREMIERSHIP CLEAR YOUR DEBTS ?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26332

" Since the end of the year the Company has reached agreement with the City and County Of Swansea, one of it's shareholders, in relation to the transfer of a significant amount of it's fixed assets in consideration for the related loan. The assest in question related to the original fit out costs incurred when the stadium become operational and the related loan was advanced by the City and County Of Swansea in order for the Company to meet these costs. After the balance sheet date the company has therefore disposed of the assets valued at £2,337,000 in these accounts, but the related loan has been written off in consideration for these assets."

This statement has been taken directly from the annual account of the Stadium Management Company filed at companies house, in short it confirms that although the Management Company has 3 equal shareholders, Swansea Council, SCFC and the Ospreys only Swansea Council contributed to the fit out costs. Why not they were the only ones contributed to the build costs of the stadium.

During the 5 years this loan was outstanding not a single penny was repaid off the outstanding amount although throughout this time SCFC received on average over £800k per year from the hire of the "Premier Club" areas. The Ospreys are in a similar position as again they contributed nothing to fit the Stadium out but have received a lesser amount each season. EQUAL PARTNERS I THINK NOT.

During the year ending 31st May 2009 SCFC received over £839,000 income from the Swansea Stadium Premier Club, a company set up by the 3 equal partners of the Stadium Management Company, during the same period the Stadium Management Company received £238,638, the City and County Of Swansea (An equal partner) received NIL.

During the year ending 31st May 2009 the Stadium Management Company collected income amounting to £3,282,831 which related to income from match day ticket sales, and the Stadium Management Company received £23,177 from SCFC in respect of overhead charges. The Stadium Management Company employ all match day staff, stewards etc, ground staff and other administative staff in their accounts over £1.6m. SCFC contribution to overhead £23,177. EQUAL PARTNERS I THINK NOT.

We all know that our club is still massively in debt and it remains a big concern to us all, however no one should ever be fooled by this mythical claim that SCFC is a well run club, they have just been lucky enough to have this gravy train fall into their laps.

Imagine how much of the debt of our club would have been reduced if over the last 5 years someone had built a stadium, paid for all match day costs, funded the stadium fit out costs and asked for nothing from the income generated from the Premier Seating Area.

We have realproblems but please do not hold up SCFC as a model of how a football club should be run.

i would not belive all you hear about the jacks debts!!
i for one belive they are in financial trouble, there chairmen huw jenkins has been securing a lot of his assets against debts of his companies as reports suggest his businesses are in the shitter!!

I'm surprised at the lack of understanding here. Debt to a business is relevant. It's like your mortgage. All business needs cashflow and many require debt to bring forward required spends. What matters is if you can pay yor debt or not. We might have £50m in the new year but are owned by people worth billions.

Manchester Utd £760m in debt but they are able to service that debt and maintain the repayment.

It's all relative. If Riddler was still here I'd be worried, we prob wouldn't even be in business but with VT et al, no worries, £50m to that lot is f**k all.

FANTASTIC DEBATE

The concourse at the Liberty is dangerously slippery when when wet !!. I have the ideal solution move the mats which are used to wipe your feet on your way out and put them outside instead !! Job done

I think they have a good reason for all that debit for their Club.