Agent McKay - Arranged The Flight .

Where do you start with this mess ?

What would have been the agents cut of this deal have been ? A couple of hundred thousand to broker a deal between
Two clubs , complete a bit of paperwork possibly , and generally “manage” their client.

However despite this it would appear they were incapable of arranging safe and LEGAL transport for said client and
apparently Lacked the gumption or morals to pick up a phone to a licenced air broker who would have a list of air taxi operators able to provide a safe twin engined aircraft flown by TWO crew ,trained to a high standard and subject to regular 6 monthly examinations and checks like I am at the airline I fly for in order to keep their licences.

Hell we even have one at Cardiff , http://dragonflyac.com/ , or maybe Centreline air charter at Bristol , or Capital air charter at Exeter , Haverfordwest air charter services etc etc....... I could go on.
5k to 7k tops for such a short trip.

Instead these spivs thought it acceptable to play fast and loose with their clients life and get their Mate a recreational private “pilot” but mostly a gas engineer/wedding dj to fly a £15 million pound footballer most likely illegally ,in a single engine piston aircraft in forecast icing conditions , at night over water in the depth of winter to save a few bob out of their couple of 100k cut of the Transfer fee.

Let that sink in

Good post and a serious point has to be how did someone actually come across this pilot unless he was an acquaintance??

Sadly all that matters for now is TWO men have lost their lives.

I have to disagree the above is a terrible post which has used the posters opinion as fact. How does he know the transport was not legal or the agent had not offered the services of flight taxi's to the player? Until the full facts are known we can only offer opinion's on what happened not facts.

The legal type of charter would be with an air taxi operator operating on a commercial air operators certificate
Using a twin engine (Performance A ) aircraft with two crew up front both commercially licenced and type rated on the
the aircraft they are operating.
It takes a huge amount of work for an air taxi firm to be issued with an Air operators Certificate ,but passengers
Can take comfort in the fact that they company they are travelling with is operating to the same standards as a commercial Airline.

Anything else where money has been exchanged is illegal under the air navigation order.

The pilot involved had a private pilots licence , whereby it is an offence to accept payment for the transport
of passengers for hire and reward. You must hold a commercial licence to do this.
Do you really think no money changed hands ?

Do you think any of this was explained to Emilio ? Unlikely..... his agent cut corners.

THINK ? your last 2 sentences contain think.
its not about thinking its about facts and evidence. and i am afraid your post is based on neither.
you may well be proved right , I am sure its crossed many peoples minds since the beginning ,but at this point in time there is no evidence of it.

I’ll make it more clear for you.

Money changed hands
Emilio wasn’t told

His name is emiliano not emilio,

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

Here comes the “svenism” again.. The morality police.. Yes he is a pilot Sven. A commercial one. He said as much in his first post..

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

Here comes the “svenism” again.. The morality police.. Yes he is a pilot Sven. A commercial one. He said as much in his first post..

yes he says he is a pilot, but is unable to grasp that you can not just run around shouting spiv and con man ,money changed hands , the player did not know without evidence.
i do not doubt his FACTS regarding what license is being held by the pilot, how many hours training are required etc. its his insistence about things he clearly can not know.

going on what this Sky fella says..Ibotson was qualified to pilot the plane for this journey, was allowed to carry passengers on this journey , was not allowed to be paid,other than for fuel and expenses .

possibly he was paid, but its also possible that both the agent and the player were unaware of him not having the hire and reward bit.
it is also possible the agent knew and Emiliano did not know .

possibly the agent was going to bill the club, possibly the agent knew about iboston not having a commercial license was doing it as a favour to the player {who he told } with no intention of billing the club or the player { i doubt very much he will bill the club now }.

money changed hands
and Emiliano did not know . are at this point guesses by someone thats passed all those tests

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

your last sentence.
the players do have private lives and do make decisions as we all do ,lots has been said regarding the suitability of this flight ,who sorted it, what should have happened instead. but to what point do clubs organise players transport to and from non club events ?

had this happened a month down the line would anyone even have looked at the club or his agent, or just assumed Emiliano sorted it.

Yes players do have private lives. However, they are extremely expensive commodities and are paid extremely well. In return, they are contracted to ensure that they don't partake in anything that could impact their fitness/ability to play games.

There is absolutely no way that moving forward, a club will permit a player to risk life and limb by taking such a reckless plane journey. Not only would an injury impact the team but there are serious questions as to whether insurance policies would cover these type of flights - Especially ones where the pilot shouldn't even be charging for his services.

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

Thank you for clearing that up!

Even if he DID want the fastest route over. It seems that am actual charter with properly trained flight crews in properly serviced and appropriate aircraft WERE available. It appears lots of airports have firms based out of them. I read the thread link from the Swansea forums and one guy even said when all this happened he was sat having dinner while a new jet used for charters was sat outside.

Personally based on the very detailed and responses from our resident pilot. I'm inclined to believe him.

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

Thank you for clearing that up!

No worries

I held (now expired) a PPL Licence myself for some years but don't claim to know the ins and outs of the situation any more than anyone else. However, I do know a British pilot who has a flying school in Florida and he informs me that in April 2017 all pilots with 'third party' qualifications (including from the FAA) had to either "validate or convert his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA)" to continue flying over here

I wasn't doubting most of what Sky High Bluebird wrote (or his impressive flight record) but he only stated his opinion and had no respect for another posters view even when parts of what he wrote appeared incorrect

I clearly missed the post where he alluded to being a pilot (although the name suggested it) and I apologise for that

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

5000 ft isn't a high altitude. He should have been flying higher, above the clouds to avoid the weather.

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

5000 ft isn't a high altitude. He should have been flying higher, above the clouds to avoid the weather.

May have been descending if he was experiencing problems with icing. Still not sure flying over the channel at night in the middle of Winter using a single engine aircraft was a sensible idea.

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

To answer your question AV3 the safer option would actually to have climbed above the cloud base and therefore out of icing
Conditions.
Cloud tops were reported at 5-6000 ft on Monday evening and the aircraft he was flying could have flown considerably
Higher than that in order to so.
However he was unable to do so as that would have meant climbing into the base of the airway something his lack
Of qualifications prohibited him from doing so.
Radar traces see him at 5000 ft flying under visual flight rules maintaining sight of the ground , and at some point I can
Only assume he has entered cloud where ice accumulation would have been rapid.
As to what happened next will be up to the investigators.

As an aside the freezing level that night would have been around 2000 ft in that area based on a temperature of 3 degrees at guernsey at the time , which is a very low height to be attempting cross channel flying particularly at night.

theres a few things that don’t add up and I have written it all up onto my notes, I think something funny has gone on but don’t think I should put it on the forum as I think many will disagree but when you step back and look at it, it’s not unrealistic, inbox me if u want to here it, but I shall not be posting it on here yet

theres a few things that don’t add up and I have written it all up onto my notes, I think something funny has gone on but don’t think I should put it on the forum as I think many will disagree but when you step back and look at it, it’s not unrealistic, inbox me if u want to here it, but I shall not be posting it on here yet

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

To answer your question AV3 the safer option would actually to have climbed above the cloud base and therefore out of icing
Conditions.
Cloud tops were reported at 5-6000 ft on Monday evening and the aircraft he was flying could have flown considerably
Higher than that in order to so.
However he was unable to do so as that would have meant climbing into the base of the airway something his lack
Of qualifications prohibited him from doing so.
Radar traces see him at 5000 ft flying under visual flight rules maintaining sight of the ground , and at some point I can
Only assume he has entered cloud where ice accumulation would have been rapid.
As to what happened next will be up to the investigators.

As an aside the freezing level that night would have been around 2000 ft in that area based on a temperature of 3 degrees at guernsey at the time , which is a very low height to be attempting cross channel flying particularly at night.

Surely the pilot researched to route, weather conditions etc before take off? He would need to do this to know how much fuel to carry.. Without a wreckage we will never know what happened.

The legal investigation will now take centre stage and it needs to be thorough and rigourous. The "facts" as they stand regarding the suitability of the of plane and the competence of the pilot, raise huge questions regarding breach of duty of care. The added issue surrounding the qualifications of the pilot and alleged production of identity papers of a different pilot at Nantes airport suggests not just negligence but a deliberate attempt to circumvent legal requirements.
It will be interesting to see what the service and maintenance records for the plane reveal and who are the owners. One key unanswered question why these travel arrangements were chosen?
Why a 1984 single engine plane flying at night over water in icey conditions was used and why a part time pilot rusty with how it operated. It makes no sense and just smacks of looking for the cheapest option and putting money before safety. Unfortunately Emiliano paid with his life. (As well as the pilot).Once the full facts are known one or more persons could be facing serious charges for serious breaches of health and safety laws


The gas website relating to the pilot does not inspire confidence -
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/dave-ib ... scunthorpe

Neither does the Wiki entry for Mr McKay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McKay

A thorough investigation and subsequent accountability will not being back the two lives but it is the minimum that the families deserve.

The legal investigation will now take centre stage and it needs to be thorough and rigourous. The "facts" as they stand regarding the suitability of the of plane and the competence of the pilot, raise huge questions regarding breach of duty of care. The added issue surrounding the qualifications of the pilot and alleged production of identity papers of a different pilot at Nantes airport suggests not just negligence but a deliberate attempt to circumvent legal requirements.
It will be interesting to see what the service and maintenance records for the plane reveal and who are the owners. One key unanswered question why these travel arrangements were chosen?
Why a 1984 single engine plane flying at night over water in icey conditions was used and why a part time pilot rusty with how it operated. It makes no sense and just smacks of looking for the cheapest option and putting money before safety. Unfortunately Emiliano paid with his life. (As well as the pilot).Once the full facts are known one or more persons could be facing serious charges for serious breaches of health and safety laws


The gas website relating to the pilot does not inspire confidence -
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/dave-ib ... scunthorpe

Neither does the Wiki entry for Mr McKay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McKay

A thorough investigation and subsequent accountability will not being back the two lives but it is the minimum that the families deserve.

I'm sure all of the above will be scrutinised... Just a note don't ever use Wiki as a reference to anything

The legal investigation will now take centre stage and it needs to be thorough and rigourous. The "facts" as they stand regarding the suitability of the of plane and the competence of the pilot, raise huge questions regarding breach of duty of care. The added issue surrounding the qualifications of the pilot and alleged production of identity papers of a different pilot at Nantes airport suggests not just negligence but a deliberate attempt to circumvent legal requirements.
It will be interesting to see what the service and maintenance records for the plane reveal and who are the owners. One key unanswered question why these travel arrangements were chosen?
Why a 1984 single engine plane flying at night over water in icey conditions was used and why a part time pilot rusty with how it operated. It makes no sense and just smacks of looking for the cheapest option and putting money before safety. Unfortunately Emiliano paid with his life. (As well as the pilot).Once the full facts are known one or more persons could be facing serious charges for serious breaches of health and safety laws


The gas website relating to the pilot does not inspire confidence -
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/dave-ib ... scunthorpe

Neither does the Wiki entry for Mr McKay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McKay

A thorough investigation and subsequent accountability will not being back the two lives but it is the minimum that the families deserve.

I'm sure all of the above will be scrutinised... Just a note don't ever use Wiki as a reference to anything

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the discussion

The legal investigation will now take centre stage and it needs to be thorough and rigourous. The "facts" as they stand regarding the suitability of the of plane and the competence of the pilot, raise huge questions regarding breach of duty of care. The added issue surrounding the qualifications of the pilot and alleged production of identity papers of a different pilot at Nantes airport suggests not just negligence but a deliberate attempt to circumvent legal requirements.
It will be interesting to see what the service and maintenance records for the plane reveal and who are the owners. One key unanswered question why these travel arrangements were chosen?
Why a 1984 single engine plane flying at night over water in icey conditions was used and why a part time pilot rusty with how it operated. It makes no sense and just smacks of looking for the cheapest option and putting money before safety. Unfortunately Emiliano paid with his life. (As well as the pilot).Once the full facts are known one or more persons could be facing serious charges for serious breaches of health and safety laws


The gas website relating to the pilot does not inspire confidence -
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/dave-ib ... scunthorpe

Neither does the Wiki entry for Mr McKay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McKay

A thorough investigation and subsequent accountability will not being back the two lives but it is the minimum that the families deserve.

I'm sure all of the above will be scrutinised... Just a note don't ever use Wiki as a reference to anything

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the discussion

Sorry, I agree with you point, however just pointing out that Wiki is not a reliable source of information, anyone can edit or add to it.

The legal investigation will now take centre stage and it needs to be thorough and rigourous. The "facts" as they stand regarding the suitability of the of plane and the competence of the pilot, raise huge questions regarding breach of duty of care. The added issue surrounding the qualifications of the pilot and alleged production of identity papers of a different pilot at Nantes airport suggests not just negligence but a deliberate attempt to circumvent legal requirements.
It will be interesting to see what the service and maintenance records for the plane reveal and who are the owners. One key unanswered question why these travel arrangements were chosen?
Why a 1984 single engine plane flying at night over water in icey conditions was used and why a part time pilot rusty with how it operated. It makes no sense and just smacks of looking for the cheapest option and putting money before safety. Unfortunately Emiliano paid with his life. (As well as the pilot).Once the full facts are known one or more persons could be facing serious charges for serious breaches of health and safety laws


The gas website relating to the pilot does not inspire confidence -
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/dave-ib ... scunthorpe

Neither does the Wiki entry for Mr McKay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McKay

A thorough investigation and subsequent accountability will not being back the two lives but it is the minimum that the families deserve.

Totally agree

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

To answer your question AV3 the safer option would actually to have climbed above the cloud base and therefore out of icing
Conditions.
Cloud tops were reported at 5-6000 ft on Monday evening and the aircraft he was flying could have flown considerably
Higher than that in order to so.
However he was unable to do so as that would have meant climbing into the base of the airway something his lack
Of qualifications prohibited him from doing so.
Radar traces see him at 5000 ft flying under visual flight rules maintaining sight of the ground , and at some point I can
Only assume he has entered cloud where ice accumulation would have been rapid.
As to what happened next will be up to the investigators.

As an aside the freezing level that night would have been around 2000 ft in that area based on a temperature of 3 degrees at guernsey at the time , which is a very low height to be attempting cross channel flying particularly at night.

Surely the pilot researched to route, weather conditions etc before take off? He would need to do this to know how much fuel to carry.. Without a wreckage we will never know what happened.

A professional and conscientious pilot would have done ,and may well have made the decision not to fly.
However his thought process was being led by his desire to get to his destination.

I'm dumbfounded by some of the comments on this thread, do you seriously believe that pilot went out to kill himself??

Nope but given his qualifications or rather lack of them , he was an accident waiting to happen.

In general aviation over confidence in your flying abilities combined with a lack of judgement usually ends badly.

Rubbish, he would have definitely had to have the qualifications to be insured to fly the plane, I'm not sure who is posting this nonsense but the CAA are so strict these days he wouldn't have got anywhere near the aircraft, plus of course if this was your plane which cost ££££'s would you allow him to fly it.

Jesus Wept

He held an American Private Pilots Licence issued by the FAA.
He wasn’t even instrument rated , hence the reason he was at 5000 ft when he encountered difficulty, he wasn’t qualified
To fly in cloud or on airways.
The aeroplane involved was American registered I.e an N reg aircraft.
He would have been insured to fly it but not on a “commercial “ basis , as he did not hold a commercial licence.
HE DIDNT EVEN HOLD A CAA LICENCE.

The CAA investigation will be looking very closely at the legality of the flight in terms of whether he accepted
Payment for it which would be illegal given his qualifications.

I would suggest doing a bit of research before spouting your ill informed nonsense.

You need to calm down and have a little respect, fella!

Did you actually do your own research or are you a pilot yourself?

It states that Dave Ibbotson holds a British (modernly European) private pilot's licence (PPL) that allows him to fly passengers between airports as long as he doesn't profit from any journey.

He obtained his qualifications in the USA (not unusual due to lower costs) but later validated or converted his licence to an equivalent issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) licence; which is a legal requirement

But if he was paid a fee amounting to more than his fuel costs and expenses to take Sala between France and Britain would be classed a commercial flight. That is where the issue might lay

Let me know which part of that is incorrect

And do,you think at anytime any of this was explained to emiliano that he was being flown by a guy who had a
Grand total of 4 years of experience flying and held the most basic qualification you could hold and who was about to
Fly him across the channel in marginal conditions.
He displayed a sever lack of airmanship in attempting it.

It’s what the CAA refer to as “grey” charters ,but I suppose it fits in perfectly with the world of football
I.e bungs and brown brown envelopes , it would be naive in the exrtreme to think this guy hadn’t
Received some sort of payment.
General aviations dirty laundry needss a thorough clean.

My “research” is based on 30 years of flying experience.
Current Uk Airline captain
13000 plus hours of flying.
10000 hours of that on Jets
1500 hours on turboprops
1700 hours on,light aircraft
Qualified flying instructor
Flown a dozen or so times single engie over the channel albeit during the day at the height of summer.
[the only time it should be attempted)
And a Reader of dozens of AAIB accident reports over the years many of which have an all to depressing similarity with this case.

Your expertise is based on what exactly ?

The one point that I have is that if he (the player) wanted the quickest route so as to be fresh for training the next day (which is understandable and commendable), there was no competition regarding sourcing a plane. The agent could just as easily sourced a plane that was more suitable to make the trip and made an even bigger mark up. The fact that he sisn't points towards naivety rather than anything more sinister.

Many mistakes appear to have been made and if it is shown that the pilot should not have been flying then the proverbial is well and truly going to hit the fan. That said, much as I dislike agents, I can't see how it has come down to greed (on their part).

One question - Are you saying that a more qualified/professional pilot would have been permitted to fly the plane lower (thus avoiding ice)? The only reason that ice appeared is because the plane was forced to fly so high when it could have been avoided by flying lower?

One thing that is certain to come out of all of this is that clubs will no longer allow players to make flights that haven't been approved by the club first.

To answer your question AV3 the safer option would actually to have climbed above the cloud base and therefore out of icing
Conditions.
Cloud tops were reported at 5-6000 ft on Monday evening and the aircraft he was flying could have flown considerably
Higher than that in order to so.
However he was unable to do so as that would have meant climbing into the base of the airway something his lack
Of qualifications prohibited him from doing so.
Radar traces see him at 5000 ft flying under visual flight rules maintaining sight of the ground , and at some point I can
Only assume he has entered cloud where ice accumulation would have been rapid.
As to what happened next will be up to the investigators.

As an aside the freezing level that night would have been around 2000 ft in that area based on a temperature of 3 degrees at guernsey at the time , which is a very low height to be attempting cross channel flying particularly at night.

Surely the pilot researched to route, weather conditions etc before take off? He would need to do this to know how much fuel to carry.. Without a wreckage we will never know what happened.

A professional and conscientious pilot would have done ,and may well have made the decision not to fly.
However his thought process was being led by his desire to get to his destination.

And of course the Wonga involved!! Blimey why does supporting Cardiff have to be such a drama

Two men dead.We should all listen to what a professional says here. That crossing at night in January in cold weather would be challenging for a very experienced pilot. At the end of this ghastly mess money will rear its inevitable head for sure. Those poor families will now bear the brunt of this catastrophic event.