A second referrendum

A forum for all things Cardiff City

Would you now trust the British Parliament to hold an honest and true referrendum on the EU ?

1. Yes
25
30%
2. No
57
70%
 
Total votes : 82

Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:02 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


They are a disgrace your spot on. Why would you want them to have more power.


Not particularly but at least we can vote the buggers out which we cannot do with junkers and his cronies :thumbup:
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Re: A second referrendum

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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebirdforlife77 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:44 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


They are a disgrace your spot on. Why would you want them to have more power.


Not particularly but at least we can vote the buggers out which we cannot do with junkers and his cronies :thumbup:



You spot on again. The sign of democracy we get to vote again if opinions change over time for one reason or another.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:48 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


They are a disgrace your spot on. Why would you want them to have more power.


Not particularly but at least we can vote the buggers out which we cannot do with junkers and his cronies :thumbup:



You spot on again. The sign of democracy we get to vote again if opinions change over time for one reason or another.



My concern is if by a miracle we have another vote and we remain, the EU will screw us for everything even more than they do now! Also there will be nothing to stop a federal Europe full of unelected un accountable mandarins feathering the gravy train that is the EU which is what germany and others want :banghead:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Sven » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:33 am

Voted an emphatic "NO" to a second referendum...


David Cameron said of a Brexit majority vote occurring (quote):

"It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

"Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’, not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide.

"At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision."


He went on to say (quote):

"When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum."

"If we vote out, that’s it. It is irreversible. We will leave Europe – for good."


Which parts of that are hard to understand? :?


None of it! It's quite clear and that's why a majority of those record numbers who voted felt empowered to take the decision they did but ever since they have been let down, stitched up and condescended on by those very MP's (and the PM) who have since conspired with others to ensure the "will of the people" is thwarted under a veil of lies and mis-representations on the facts; as told by one David Cameron, Esq. :(
"If you think what I say is 'offensive' to you, you should hear what I keep to myself...!"
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby castleblue » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:03 am

pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


This is what disappoints me most about all of this as my MP voted against this deal when in the referendum his constituency, Caerphilly, voted to leave with a 15% majority. I've sent this email to my MP:


Mr David,

As a lifetime supporter of the Labour Party is saddens me deeply to write this email to you but I feel your vote on Tuesday evening has left me with no option.

Your vote against the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister in relation to the UK leaving the EU clearly flies in the face of the will of your constituents in Caerphilly, myself included. I would like to remind you that over 57% of your constituents voted to Leave the EU and that represented a 15% majority. This is an important issue as represented by the 71% turnout in the referendum vote, much higher than the General Election in which you were returned to Parliament.

It's clear to me that my vote is not important to you, but it is to me, and I will never waste it again by supporting you in the elections to come.


Your deeply disappointed constituent,


I don't think he will care enough to send me any meaningful reply, but I will never vote for him again.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf: :bluescarf:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:12 am

castleblue wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


This is what disappoints me most about all of this as my MP voted against this deal when in the referendum his constituency, Caerphilly, voted to leave with a 15% majority. I've sent this email to my MP:


Mr David,

As a lifetime supporter of the Labour Party is saddens me deeply to write this email to you but I feel your vote on Tuesday evening has left me with no option.

Your vote against the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister in relation to the UK leaving the EU clearly flies in the face of the will of your constituents in Caerphilly, myself included. I would like to remind you that over 57% of your constituents voted to Leave the EU and that represented a 15% majority. This is an important issue as represented by the 71% turnout in the referendum vote, much higher than the General Election in which you were returned to Parliament.

It's clear to me that my vote is not important to you, but it is to me, and I will never waste it again by supporting you in the elections to come.


Your deeply disappointed constituent,


I don't think he will care enough to send me any meaningful reply, but I will never vote for him again.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Simple solution was for corbyn to go to may once leave was voted and help negotiate what was acceptable to Labour party that way EU would know UK meant buisness , but all weve had is them sniping away at everything put forward so reducing our strength in negotiations And hes still doing it now by refusing to sit fown and talk about it with may! it's become blatantly obvious that he saw leave vote as an opportunity to make play for PM as he knew he wouldn't do it the normal way if anyone is to blame for this situation it's corbyn and the other self interested ex political nobodies undermining Uks negotiations. :old:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebina » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:19 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:There is little doubt in the public mind that politicians are deliberately fudging issues and employing procedural conjuring tricks to frustrate and reverse the popular vote and the will of the electors .

This is a very very grave matter indeed.

We know and can easily predict that they might try to angle it towards another referrendum - falsely claiming that this is the only alternative available . Therefore here's a question I never thought anyone would seriously be posing in the United Kingdom, but one which I'm afraid must be addressed...


I said this yesterday in the Brexit thread.

The majority in Parliament want to remain, they will make it impossible for remain to fail, by either splitting the leave vote with two options or putting remain against an unpopular Brexit option, either Mays deal or as they like to call it "crash out" and will frighten the dull into thinking that this will lead to disaster, loss of jobs, crashing the economy etc.

I think by refusing every other option, parliament will try and stop Brexit in this manner, and of course you can't trust them, they are all out for themselves !!!
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebina » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:22 am

pembroke allan wrote:
castleblue wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


This is what disappoints me most about all of this as my MP voted against this deal when in the referendum his constituency, Caerphilly, voted to leave with a 15% majority. I've sent this email to my MP:


Mr David,

As a lifetime supporter of the Labour Party is saddens me deeply to write this email to you but I feel your vote on Tuesday evening has left me with no option.

Your vote against the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister in relation to the UK leaving the EU clearly flies in the face of the will of your constituents in Caerphilly, myself included. I would like to remind you that over 57% of your constituents voted to Leave the EU and that represented a 15% majority. This is an important issue as represented by the 71% turnout in the referendum vote, much higher than the General Election in which you were returned to Parliament.

It's clear to me that my vote is not important to you, but it is to me, and I will never waste it again by supporting you in the elections to come.


Your deeply disappointed constituent,


I don't think he will care enough to send me any meaningful reply, but I will never vote for him again.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Simple solution was for corbyn to go to may once leave was voted and help negotiate what was acceptable to Labour party that way EU would know UK meant buisness , but all weve had is them sniping away at everything put forward so reducing our strength in negotiations And hes still doing it now by refusing to sit fown and talk about it with may! it's become blatantly obvious that he saw leave vote as an opportunity to make play for PM as he knew he wouldn't do it the normal way if anyone is to blame for this situation it's corbyn and the other self interested ex political nobodies undermining Uks negotiations. :old:


Spot on he's just out for himself and doesn't want to contribute, just play childish games and to try and stop any progress!
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:42 am

Bluebina wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
castleblue wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


This is what disappoints me most about all of this as my MP voted against this deal when in the referendum his constituency, Caerphilly, voted to leave with a 15% majority. I've sent this email to my MP:


Mr David,

As a lifetime supporter of the Labour Party is saddens me deeply to write this email to you but I feel your vote on Tuesday evening has left me with no option.

Your vote against the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister in relation to the UK leaving the EU clearly flies in the face of the will of your constituents in Caerphilly, myself included. I would like to remind you that over 57% of your constituents voted to Leave the EU and that represented a 15% majority. This is an important issue as represented by the 71% turnout in the referendum vote, much higher than the General Election in which you were returned to Parliament.

It's clear to me that my vote is not important to you, but it is to me, and I will never waste it again by supporting you in the elections to come.


Your deeply disappointed constituent,


I don't think he will care enough to send me any meaningful reply, but I will never vote for him again.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Simple solution was for corbyn to go to may once leave was voted and help negotiate what was acceptable to Labour party that way EU would know UK meant buisness , but all weve had is them sniping away at everything put forward so reducing our strength in negotiations And hes still doing it now by refusing to sit fown and talk about it with may! it's become blatantly obvious that he saw leave vote as an opportunity to make play for PM as he knew he wouldn't do it the normal way if anyone is to blame for this situation it's corbyn and the other self interested ex political nobodies undermining Uks negotiations. :old:


Spot on he's just out for himself and doesn't want to contribute, just play childish games and to try and stop any progress!



yep. WTF was that vote he called last night ? absolute waste of everyones time.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebina » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:49 am

dogfound wrote:
Bluebina wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
castleblue wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:I feel it’s the only way now. I’m sad to say. If so I’ve changed my mind and would vote remain. I have no confidence in politicians from this country being able to run it.



And you have confidence in the unelected mob from Europe running us? :roll:


The better option out of the two I’m afraid as been proven in these negotiations.


Better option is a matter of opinion of course! but then that's not what was democratically voted for, the negotiations have ended like this because of selfish mps who want what they want not what the people voted for they are a disgrace to constituencies they represent :thumbup:


This is what disappoints me most about all of this as my MP voted against this deal when in the referendum his constituency, Caerphilly, voted to leave with a 15% majority. I've sent this email to my MP:


Mr David,

As a lifetime supporter of the Labour Party is saddens me deeply to write this email to you but I feel your vote on Tuesday evening has left me with no option.

Your vote against the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister in relation to the UK leaving the EU clearly flies in the face of the will of your constituents in Caerphilly, myself included. I would like to remind you that over 57% of your constituents voted to Leave the EU and that represented a 15% majority. This is an important issue as represented by the 71% turnout in the referendum vote, much higher than the General Election in which you were returned to Parliament.

It's clear to me that my vote is not important to you, but it is to me, and I will never waste it again by supporting you in the elections to come.


Your deeply disappointed constituent,


I don't think he will care enough to send me any meaningful reply, but I will never vote for him again.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Simple solution was for corbyn to go to may once leave was voted and help negotiate what was acceptable to Labour party that way EU would know UK meant buisness , but all weve had is them sniping away at everything put forward so reducing our strength in negotiations And hes still doing it now by refusing to sit fown and talk about it with may! it's become blatantly obvious that he saw leave vote as an opportunity to make play for PM as he knew he wouldn't do it the normal way if anyone is to blame for this situation it's corbyn and the other self interested ex political nobodies undermining Uks negotiations. :old:


Spot on he's just out for himself and doesn't want to contribute, just play childish games and to try and stop any progress!



yep. WTF was that vote he called last night ? absolute waste of everyones time.


True childish games, when they have real problems to sort out !!!
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby troobloo3339 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:53 am

I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:12 am

troobloo3339 wrote:I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016



I do not understand why Mays deal would be included..
many of the things included in that deal were agreed between an under pressure to get some sort of deal PM

and EU negotiators who knew full well how weak her negotiating position was..

in a negotiation where the cards are stacked so heavily in your favour your going to give the absolute minimum , surely.?

and I do not see any reason why the EU would not want certain agreements with us the day after we leave any less than the day before.?
we voted leave and should leave, it in no way stops future arrangements, agreements or deals being made.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:15 am

troobloo3339 wrote:I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016



But that's not what these people want they call it the peoples vote when in reality its a vote that they want so to put on ballet paper do you want to remain in EU as one of the questions, your right the only questions on ballot should relate to how we leave. :thumbup:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 am

dogfound wrote:
troobloo3339 wrote:I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016



I do not understand why Mays deal would be included..
many of the things included in that deal were agreed between an under pressure to get some sort of deal PM

and EU negotiators who knew full well how weak her negotiating position was..

in a negotiation where the cards are stacked so heavily in your favour your going to give the absolute minimum , surely.?

and I do not see any reason why the EU would not want certain agreements with us the day after we leave any less than the day before.?
we voted leave and should leave, it in no way stops future arrangements, agreements or deals being made.



EU have to make theses arrangements otherwise it's economy would collapse as tourist won't get to Spain ect wine won't get to France ect ect all these things will effect their economic stability more than ours that's for sure
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby T1JMO » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:24 am

For god sake NOOOO!

There should be a vote though:

A) Sign the £40bn deal

OR

B) Leave with No Deal
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebina » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

troobloo3339 wrote:I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016


Agreed the only problem is Mays deal was shit, and Parliament will not let us have a no-deal Brexit, we are about to be stitched up with either a 2nd vote fixed for remain or a weak half in half out type soft Brexit !!!

Corbyns lot have already said they won't even talk if they don't remove no-deal, so we are supposed to negotiate with no threat of bend or we will leave without a deal!!
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 am

pembroke allan wrote:
dogfound wrote:
troobloo3339 wrote:I voted no
How ever i would be happy with a second vote
As we have voted out let the people vote on how we leave
So the vote should be on the following only
Teresa mays deal
A no deal
Simple remain should not be an option as that was voted on in 2016



I do not understand why Mays deal would be included..
many of the things included in that deal were agreed between an under pressure to get some sort of deal PM

and EU negotiators who knew full well how weak her negotiating position was..

in a negotiation where the cards are stacked so heavily in your favour your going to give the absolute minimum , surely.?

and I do not see any reason why the EU would not want certain agreements with us the day after we leave any less than the day before.?
we voted leave and should leave, it in no way stops future arrangements, agreements or deals being made.



EU have to make theses arrangements otherwise it's economy would collapse as tourist won't get to Spain ect wine won't get to France ect ect all these things will effect their economic stability more than ours that's for sure


yes mate they do need to ,but to hear some people talk ,if we leave with no deal an iron curtain descends and all contact ends forever. really not the case, infact it strengthens our position . at the moment we have a PM scuttling back and forth with her tail between her legs carrying a begging bowl which can not be good. can it ?
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby epping blue » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:38 am

There's no chance any deal will get through parliament. 7% of the conservatives, 99% of labour and 100% of the remaining parties are completely opposed to any form of Brexit and will thwart the process completely as we're seeing. Oh the DUP would go for a wall along the border as their ideal preference.

We need a General Election, the first and last time Ill agree with Corbyn probably.

The tories need to agree between themselves and go forward with that. Easier said than done.

Labour needs to have strength of its own convictions. 95% of their MPs are openly hostile to brexit and the party needs to be honest with the electorate and go forward on that.

To be fair the remainder have the strength of their convictions and will go forward with no brexit.

If any of them campaign for another referendum and end up forming a governement even as minor partners in a coalition then a second referedum should be accepted.

Whoever forms the government should take us through to completion of brexit or no brexit, unnapposed.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:45 am

powysblue wrote:Remember No deal is Better than a bad deal


Simply not the case at all.
Hell even ignoring the issues that no deal would give (which are many), what exactly is wrong with the deal on the table now?

powysblue wrote:Mrs May's DEAL is really a capitulation and was the plan all along to frustrate the people's wishes by the back door - How many times does she have to try and convince the Brexit voting electorate and the slippery politicians that this is deal brexit ? It is just trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes and what makes it particularly galling is that the political class think that the PLEBS (as they like to call the ordinary people) will fall for their tricks and lies.


You realise May's deal is pretty far towards the anti EU side than the remain side right?
No freedom of movement, no customs union etc etc. Pretty much everything to leave side wanted.

Seriously apart from the temp backstop (which is needed because we don't have the time to devise a proper solution to the NI border issue) and the payments to the EU (which were always going to be paid because we had made a commitment to paying them, you can't just decide you won't pay someone despite having a contract that says you would), I really don't see what leavers can complain about with it.

powysblue wrote:Even if the only way, is another referendum, that will be rigged as well, with 3 questions on the ballot (1) leave the EU (2) leave the EU with Mrs May's Deal (3) stay in EU. - what the inevitable consequence of that would be, some leave voters would vote for Mrs May's deal just to get it "over and done with", whilst other leave voters would vote to leave again. The original Stay in EU voters would mostly vote to Stay - Thus, the leave Vote would be split and the stay vote would win - THE PLAN ALL ALONG.


But that is exactly the point. We have literally no idea of the kind of Brexit people want. Do people want a closer relationship with the EU such as Norway or Switzerland? Do they want a half way house like May's deal? Or do they want to leave with no deal regardless of consequence? We just do not know.

powysblue wrote:Most, but not all, of the younger generation accuse the older generation of messing up their future? Do they really think that the older and mostly wiser, university of life oldies voted leave to mess up their future? NO, quite the opposite.


Yes.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:03 am

WelshBluebird wrote:
powysblue wrote:Remember No deal is Better than a bad deal


Simply not the case at all.
Hell even ignoring the issues that no deal would give (which are many), what exactly is wrong with the deal on the table now?

powysblue wrote:Mrs May's DEAL is really a capitulation and was the plan all along to frustrate the people's wishes by the back door - How many times does she have to try and convince the Brexit voting electorate and the slippery politicians that this is deal brexit ? It is just trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes and what makes it particularly galling is that the political class think that the PLEBS (as they like to call the ordinary people) will fall for their tricks and lies.


You realise May's deal is pretty far towards the anti EU side than the remain side right?
No freedom of movement, no customs union etc etc. Pretty much everything to leave side wanted.

Seriously apart from the temp backstop (which is needed because we don't have the time to devise a proper solution to the NI border issue) and the payments to the EU (which were always going to be paid because we had made a commitment to paying them, you can't just decide you won't pay someone despite having a contract that says you would), I really don't see what leavers can complain about with it.

powysblue wrote:Even if the only way, is another referendum, that will be rigged as well, with 3 questions on the ballot (1) leave the EU (2) leave the EU with Mrs May's Deal (3) stay in EU. - what the inevitable consequence of that would be, some leave voters would vote for Mrs May's deal just to get it "over and done with", whilst other leave voters would vote to leave again. The original Stay in EU voters would mostly vote to Stay - Thus, the leave Vote would be split and the stay vote would win - THE PLAN ALL ALONG.


But that is exactly the point. We have literally no idea of the kind of Brexit people want. Do people want a closer relationship with the EU such as Norway or Switzerland? Do they want a half way house like May's deal? Or do they want to leave with no deal regardless of consequence? We just do not know.

powysblue wrote:Most, but not all, of the younger generation accuse the older generation of messing up their future? Do they really think that the older and mostly wiser, university of life oldies voted leave to mess up their future? NO, quite the opposite.


Yes.


A future in a federal Europe run by Germany and France with UK tagging along behind and Germans say jump we say how high! UK is an independent state do not want it to be part of a 40 countries state by time it's finished, with us having no say on immigration economic thing and no doubt be forced to join EU currency.. the list is endless.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:06 am

WelshBluebird wrote:
powysblue wrote:Remember No deal is Better than a bad deal


Simply not the case at all.
Hell even ignoring the issues that no deal would give (which are many), what exactly is wrong with the deal on the table now?

powysblue wrote:Mrs May's DEAL is really a capitulation and was the plan all along to frustrate the people's wishes by the back door - How many times does she have to try and convince the Brexit voting electorate and the slippery politicians that this is deal brexit ? It is just trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes and what makes it particularly galling is that the political class think that the PLEBS (as they like to call the ordinary people) will fall for their tricks and lies.


You realise May's deal is pretty far towards the anti EU side than the remain side right?
No freedom of movement, no customs union etc etc. Pretty much everything to leave side wanted.

Seriously apart from the temp backstop (which is needed because we don't have the time to devise a proper solution to the NI border issue) and the payments to the EU (which were always going to be paid because we had made a commitment to paying them, you can't just decide you won't pay someone despite having a contract that says you would), I really don't see what leavers can complain about with it.

powysblue wrote:Even if the only way, is another referendum, that will be rigged as well, with 3 questions on the ballot (1) leave the EU (2) leave the EU with Mrs May's Deal (3) stay in EU. - what the inevitable consequence of that would be, some leave voters would vote for Mrs May's deal just to get it "over and done with", whilst other leave voters would vote to leave again. The original Stay in EU voters would mostly vote to Stay - Thus, the leave Vote would be split and the stay vote would win - THE PLAN ALL ALONG.


But that is exactly the point. We have literally no idea of the kind of Brexit people want. Do people want a closer relationship with the EU such as Norway or Switzerland? Do they want a half way house like May's deal? Or do they want to leave with no deal regardless of consequence? We just do not know.

powysblue wrote:Most, but not all, of the younger generation accuse the older generation of messing up their future? Do they really think that the older and mostly wiser, university of life oldies voted leave to mess up their future? NO, quite the opposite.


Yes.



WE have literally no idea...correct you do not.
its hard to believe that a group of people that generally potray themselves as the nations brain trust can not grasp the meaning of a single word. LEAVE. but eh oh.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:10 am

pembroke allan wrote:A future in a federal Europe run by Germany and France with UK tagging along behind and Germans say jump we say how high! UK is an independent state do not want it to be part of a 40 countries state by time it's finished, with us having no say on immigration economic thing and no doubt be forced to join EU currency.. the list is endless.


Well lets ignore your apparent magical ability to time travel and know what will happen in the future, May's deal doesn't tie us to the EU like that at all. It takes us out of the single market, out of the customs union, stops freedom of movement, certainly doesn't tie us to the Euro (though even within the EU we have an opt out for that so it wouldn't happen unless we wanted it to), gives us control of all immigration etc etc. So I'll ask once again what exactly is the problem with May's deal?
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:11 am

dogfound wrote:WE have literally no idea...correct you do not.
its hard to believe that a group of people that generally potray themselves as the nations brain trust can not grasp the meaning of a single word. LEAVE. but eh oh.


Oh so I don't know but you magically do know exactly what kind of Brexit 17 million people want?
Ok in that case I ask how many leave voters wanted a Norway / Switzerland type deal?
How many wanted something like May's deal?
How many want no deal at all?
Oh you don't know? Thought not!
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebirdforlife77 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:38 am

The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Steve Zodiak » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:58 am

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.


Does'nt matter what the nation wants. If we voted for leave with no deal, there would have to be a third vote and however many more it would take until those with their paws in the gravy train get the result they want.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebina » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:13 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.


That's the vote we've already had, Parliment won't follow the result though, they are stitching us up with a soft option or more likely referendum fixed for a no Brexit.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebirdforlife77 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.


Does'nt matter what the nation wants. If we voted for leave with no deal, there would have to be a third vote and however many more it would take until those with their paws in the gravy train get the result they want.


So there’s no gravy train the other way then??
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby epping blue » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.


Does'nt matter what the nation wants. If we voted for leave with no deal, there would have to be a third vote and however many more it would take until those with their paws in the gravy train get the result they want.



Your right. 95% of labour politicians are absolutely apposed to Brexit and despite a significant majority of their constituencies voting to leave they will do all in they're power to thwart any Brexit whatsoever. If they campaigned with that policy, as they ought then we'd know where they stood. But they campaigned in 2017 on the basis of delivering on the result of the referendum. They have clearly no intention of honouring that manifesto commitment.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:29 pm

Bluebina wrote:That's the vote we've already had, Parliment won't follow the result though, they are stitching us up with a soft option or more likely referendum fixed for a no Brexit.


Except it wasn't. The vote we had was remain v any kind of leave.
We now know we should leave (I'm not going to get into any arguments about that vote here, regardless of what I think).
But we don't know what kind of leave.
There is zero evidence to suggest the majority support no deal as you are claiming.

Steve Zodiak wrote:Does'nt matter what the nation wants. If we voted for leave with no deal, there would have to be a third vote and however many more it would take until those with their paws in the gravy train get the result they want.


And the politicians pushing for a no deal aren't doing so for their own personal benefit? lol.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby epping blue » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:35 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
Bluebina wrote:That's the vote we've already had, Parliment won't follow the result though, they are stitching us up with a soft option or more likely referendum fixed for a no Brexit.


Except it wasn't. The vote we had was remain v any kind of leave.
We now know we should leave (I'm not going to get into any arguments about that vote here, regardless of what I think).
But we don't know what kind of leave.
There is zero evidence to suggest the majority support no deal as you are claiming.


So your saying, we voted to leave so now the question is how we leave ? Mays deal or no deal.
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