Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:51 pm
Bluebina wrote:castleblue wrote:I can only see one way out of this crisis, and that's exactly what this is, and that's to take this decision away from Westminster and move immediately to a 2nd referendum and that referendum have just two options, Remain on our current terms or Leave on the terms negotiated.
I voted leave in the referendum and despite there being an overwhelming majority in favour of leave in my constituency last night our MP, Wayne David, voted against the deal negotiated by Theresa May, Why? I feel totally let down by my MP and I will be sending him an email today telling him just that and making him one promise, he will never get my vote again.
I actually feel a little sympathy for Theresa May as just over a month ago 117 of her own MP's voted against her in the Tory party confidence vote in her leadership, last night 116 of her MP's voted against her agreement which has turned a drama into a full blown crisis. However this morning the posh boy Rees-Mogg is on Sky saying HIS group will support TM in the confidence vote this evening. These are the type of games being played by the very people we elect to run our country on our behalf.
I believe it's time for the ordinary people of this country to settle this issue once and for all and that's through a 2nd referendum, last time I voted leave and will do so again but whatever the outcome the result MUST be respected by all sides.
Bollox to that, we already have agreed to leave 29th March and that's what should happen.
It won't though Parliment will fiddle the 2nd referendum so that the only outcome will be remain, they don't want Brexit and are trying to prevent it no matter what we think, it's going to be the biggest stitch up of all time !!!!
Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:40 pm
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:24 pm
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:33 pm
SirJimmySchoular wrote:A very good point has been raised there.
If they got away with calling another referendum , would you trust it ?
At the very least they'd structure it with multiple options for leave but only one for remain, thus splitting the leave vote.
At worst they might actually falsify the figures to ensure remain wins.
I suggest that the best thing we could do in that case would be to boycott the vote and thus prevent them claiming a mandate to sell us out.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:34 pm
SirJimmySchoular wrote:A very good point has been raised there.
If they got away with calling another referendum , would you trust it ?
At the very least they'd structure it with multiple options for leave but only one for remain, thus splitting the leave vote.
At worst they might actually falsify the figures to ensure remain wins.
I suggest that the best thing we could do in that case would be to boycott the vote and thus prevent them claiming a mandate to sell us out.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:49 pm
pembroke allan wrote:Bluebina wrote:castleblue wrote:I can only see one way out of this crisis, and that's exactly what this is, and that's to take this decision away from Westminster and move immediately to a 2nd referendum and that referendum have just two options, Remain on our current terms or Leave on the terms negotiated.
I voted leave in the referendum and despite there being an overwhelming majority in favour of leave in my constituency last night our MP, Wayne David, voted against the deal negotiated by Theresa May, Why? I feel totally let down by my MP and I will be sending him an email today telling him just that and making him one promise, he will never get my vote again.
I actually feel a little sympathy for Theresa May as just over a month ago 117 of her own MP's voted against her in the Tory party confidence vote in her leadership, last night 116 of her MP's voted against her agreement which has turned a drama into a full blown crisis. However this morning the posh boy Rees-Mogg is on Sky saying HIS group will support TM in the confidence vote this evening. These are the type of games being played by the very people we elect to run our country on our behalf.
I believe it's time for the ordinary people of this country to settle this issue once and for all and that's through a 2nd referendum, last time I voted leave and will do so again but whatever the outcome the result MUST be respected by all sides.
Bollox to that, we already have agreed to leave 29th March and that's what should happen.
It won't though Parliment will fiddle the 2nd referendum so that the only outcome will be remain, they don't want Brexit and are trying to prevent it no matter what we think, it's going to be the biggest stitch up of all time !!!!
There's me thinking the people did vote leave so no need for 2nd referendum? And your right sleazy politicians are doing there best to run rough shot over democracy ...
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:55 pm
Jock wrote:This country voted for what the MSM are now calling a No Deal, Hard Brexit, Crashing Out.we were clearly informed by emptysuit Cameron that voting out meant , no customs union, no single market and leavingthe ECJ. The scumbag spent £9mof our taxes leafleting every home in Britain, explaining exactlythis. Also we’re £39b better off immediately.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:06 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:Jock wrote:This country voted for what the MSM are now calling a No Deal, Hard Brexit, Crashing Out.we were clearly informed by emptysuit Cameron that voting out meant , no customs union, no single market and leavingthe ECJ. The scumbag spent £9mof our taxes leafleting every home in Britain, explaining exactlythis. Also we’re £39b better off immediately.
1 - How can you claim to speak for all leave voters? You don't know what all of them voted for apart from to leave the EU itself. You have literally no idea if they wanted to leave the single market, or the ECJ or whatever. That is why there is a push from some to have a second vote to figure out what most people do actually want.
2 - And yet many on the leave side tried to claim we could still be in the single market, or have a deal with the EU like Switzerland or Norway etc. So in that case it is obvious people were voting for different types of Brexit.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:10 pm
dogfound wrote:WelshBluebird wrote:Jock wrote:This country voted for what the MSM are now calling a No Deal, Hard Brexit, Crashing Out.we were clearly informed by emptysuit Cameron that voting out meant , no customs union, no single market and leavingthe ECJ. The scumbag spent £9mof our taxes leafleting every home in Britain, explaining exactlythis. Also we’re £39b better off immediately.
1 - How can you claim to speak for all leave voters? You don't know what all of them voted for apart from to leave the EU itself. You have literally no idea if they wanted to leave the single market, or the ECJ or whatever. That is why there is a push from some to have a second vote to figure out what most people do actually want.
2 - And yet many on the leave side tried to claim we could still be in the single market, or have a deal with the EU like Switzerland or Norway etc. So in that case it is obvious people were voting for different types of Brexit.
only people who voted remain understood the voting form..yep great point.
how daft do you think people are.?
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:dogfound wrote:WelshBluebird wrote:Jock wrote:This country voted for what the MSM are now calling a No Deal, Hard Brexit, Crashing Out.we were clearly informed by emptysuit Cameron that voting out meant , no customs union, no single market and leavingthe ECJ. The scumbag spent £9mof our taxes leafleting every home in Britain, explaining exactlythis. Also we’re £39b better off immediately.
1 - How can you claim to speak for all leave voters? You don't know what all of them voted for apart from to leave the EU itself. You have literally no idea if they wanted to leave the single market, or the ECJ or whatever. That is why there is a push from some to have a second vote to figure out what most people do actually want.
2 - And yet many on the leave side tried to claim we could still be in the single market, or have a deal with the EU like Switzerland or Norway etc. So in that case it is obvious people were voting for different types of Brexit.
only people who voted remain understood the voting form..yep great point.
how daft do you think people are.?
Nice putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that.
What I am saying is that the vote was to leave the EU or not but there was no more detail other than that. You can leave the EU but still be in the single market, or still be in the ECJ etc etc. There are different "levels" of leaving the EU and that is what was not asked.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:25 pm
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:04 pm
thomasblue wrote:The 202 MPs should be sacked, they have a duty to deliver the will of the people
The country voted to leave. The deal did not allow that so this was the best outcome for the Leave camp
Backing that deal was keeping us in the EU through the back door
No deal is the only way now
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:14 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:dogfound wrote:WelshBluebird wrote:Jock wrote:This country voted for what the MSM are now calling a No Deal, Hard Brexit, Crashing Out.we were clearly informed by emptysuit Cameron that voting out meant , no customs union, no single market and leavingthe ECJ. The scumbag spent £9mof our taxes leafleting every home in Britain, explaining exactlythis. Also we’re £39b better off immediately.
1 - How can you claim to speak for all leave voters? You don't know what all of them voted for apart from to leave the EU itself. You have literally no idea if they wanted to leave the single market, or the ECJ or whatever. That is why there is a push from some to have a second vote to figure out what most people do actually want.
2 - And yet many on the leave side tried to claim we could still be in the single market, or have a deal with the EU like Switzerland or Norway etc. So in that case it is obvious people were voting for different types of Brexit.
only people who voted remain understood the voting form..yep great point.
how daft do you think people are.?
Nice putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that.
What I am saying is that the vote was to leave the EU or not but there was no more detail other than that. You can leave the EU but still be in the single market, or still be in the ECJ etc etc. There are different "levels" of leaving the EU and that is what was not asked.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:35 pm
howbluewasmyvalley wrote:thomasblue wrote:The 202 MPs should be sacked, they have a duty to deliver the will of the people
The country voted to leave. The deal did not allow that so this was the best outcome for the Leave camp
Backing that deal was keeping us in the EU through the back door
No deal is the only way now
None of out politicians have budged in the past two years. All entrenched with no acceptance that they must deliver the referendum result. A clean break from the EU.
SNP playing for Independence, Labour for a general election, the Maybot to stay as PM.
Lib-dems irrelevant. UKIP irrelevant, Plaid on SNPs coattails, NI parties same as always.
Tonight Corbyn refusing to negotiate unless No Deal off the table.
His tactics are so b obvious.
By the way what’s happened to all the Blairites who’ve been trying to kick him out for years.
All gone quiet over there.
None of them can be trusted.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:04 pm
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:13 pm
Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:51 pm
Sven wrote:howbluewasmyvalley wrote:thomasblue wrote:The 202 MPs should be sacked, they have a duty to deliver the will of the people
The country voted to leave. The deal did not allow that so this was the best outcome for the Leave camp
Backing that deal was keeping us in the EU through the back door
No deal is the only way now
None of out politicians have budged in the past two years. All entrenched with no acceptance that they must deliver the referendum result. A clean break from the EU.
SNP playing for Independence, Labour for a general election, the Maybot to stay as PM.
Lib-dems irrelevant. UKIP irrelevant, Plaid on SNPs coattails, NI parties same as always.
Tonight Corbyn refusing to negotiate unless No Deal off the table.
His tactics are so b obvious.
By the way what’s happened to all the Blairites who’ve been trying to kick him out for years.
All gone quiet over there.
None of them can be trusted.
Been out all day but I understood Theresa May refused to deal/speak with Jeremy Corbyn and not the other way round. Corbyn is desperate to have his say in that environment?
Also, the Blairites (marginally better than the Corbynistas but only just) are still around. Like Corbyn himself, they're just waiting for the opportune moment to come back into the light and run amok. In the meantime, Corbyn is doing the job of ridding the Labour Party of his leadership pretty well on their behalf and without their required interference (hence no blame on them)
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:56 am
pembroke allan wrote:Sven wrote:howbluewasmyvalley wrote:thomasblue wrote:The 202 MPs should be sacked, they have a duty to deliver the will of the people
The country voted to leave. The deal did not allow that so this was the best outcome for the Leave camp
Backing that deal was keeping us in the EU through the back door
No deal is the only way now
None of out politicians have budged in the past two years. All entrenched with no acceptance that they must deliver the referendum result. A clean break from the EU.
SNP playing for Independence, Labour for a general election, the Maybot to stay as PM.
Lib-dems irrelevant. UKIP irrelevant, Plaid on SNPs coattails, NI parties same as always.
Tonight Corbyn refusing to negotiate unless No Deal off the table.
His tactics are so b obvious.
By the way what’s happened to all the Blairites who’ve been trying to kick him out for years.
All gone quiet over there.
None of them can be trusted.
Been out all day but I understood Theresa May refused to deal/speak with Jeremy Corbyn and not the other way round. Corbyn is desperate to have his say in that environment?
Also, the Blairites (marginally better than the Corbynistas but only just) are still around. Like Corbyn himself, they're just waiting for the opportune moment to come back into the light and run amok. In the meantime, Corbyn is doing the job of ridding the Labour Party of his leadership pretty well on their behalf and without their required interference (hence no blame on them)
Sven! corbyn own words in parliament I won't meet you unless you drop no deal part of agreement that's a clear as you can get who refused who? Unless you use var to decide and then confusion will reign!
Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:06 am
howbluewasmyvalley wrote:It moved on tonight with the Maybot saying she’d meet other party leaders individually.
Corbyn then made his “not unless No Deal is off the table” comment.
Obvious to most in the country for a long time that Blair set the benchmark what not to trust in a politician.
Bent as a nine Bob note.
Corbyn is just naive.
Block 111
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:51 am
dogfound wrote:those suggestions were just suggestions , and if acted upon would obviously be after leaving because those negotiations had not taken place.
and how could you give different levels of leaving without pre arranged levels with the EU.
pembroke allan wrote:The ballot paper was drawn up to be simple and to specific guidelines that were in place. To put questions like leave ecj, common fisheries policy ect ect would be absolutely bonkers. The idea was vote and as leave won it was then up to may to negotiate terms. Not sure if they are best terms but in reality it's that or complete brexit no deal which gives the people what was voted for ! No deal be tough but sure given time wil work out better for UK and we will not go bankrupt or lose millions of jobs as remainders forecast. Did ok b4 EU wil do so again outside an unelected quango.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:01 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:dogfound wrote:those suggestions were just suggestions , and if acted upon would obviously be after leaving because those negotiations had not taken place.
and how could you give different levels of leaving without pre arranged levels with the EU.
YEs they were suggestions. That is exactly my point. There were multiple suggestions of the kind of relationship we have with the EU upon leaving. Some of those (e.g. a Norway or Switzerland type deal) would mean a lot closer relationship than some others (e.g. something like May's deal, or leaving without a deal). The various suggestions and options are very very different, yet we have literally no idea which kind of options are preferred by those who voted leave.pembroke allan wrote:The ballot paper was drawn up to be simple and to specific guidelines that were in place. To put questions like leave ecj, common fisheries policy ect ect would be absolutely bonkers. The idea was vote and as leave won it was then up to may to negotiate terms. Not sure if they are best terms but in reality it's that or complete brexit no deal which gives the people what was voted for ! No deal be tough but sure given time wil work out better for UK and we will not go bankrupt or lose millions of jobs as remainders forecast. Did ok b4 EU wil do so again outside an unelected quango.
Do I think every single policy or option should have been put to the public? Of course not. But I do think we need to get a more nuanced idea of people's views. Yes 52% voted to leave, but those 17 million people have vastly different views. Some want us to get as far away from the EU as possible, some want a similar deal to Norway / Switzerland etc. Those views are very different and in some cases conflicted. But as people are against a 2nd vote, what are the MP's supposed to do apart from try to please as many people as possible, which is what May has tried (and failed) to do.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:05 pm
pembroke allan wrote:the deal may be bad but the efforts now should be on politicians to get together and find deal suitable to all
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:49 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:pembroke allan wrote:the deal may be bad but the efforts now should be on politicians to get together and find deal suitable to all
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:26 pm
pembroke allan wrote:Didn't say was bad deal just might be.. anyway as I've said before it's up to Corbyn and the rest to get together and find a deal that is acceptable to all. But at moment corbyn only interested in himself and pm ambitions
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:48 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:pembroke allan wrote:Didn't say was bad deal just might be.. anyway as I've said before it's up to Corbyn and the rest to get together and find a deal that is acceptable to all. But at moment corbyn only interested in himself and pm ambitions
Hold on. May has had over 2 years to work with other MP's to find something that would work. But she only wants to now. Surely that is on her? Not sure you can blame Corbyn for that tbh. May went straight in, starting article 50 before even thinking about it, and has led us to this impasse because of her red lines on freedom of movement and the single market.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:56 pm
WelshBluebird wrote:pembroke allan wrote:Didn't say was bad deal just might be.. anyway as I've said before it's up to Corbyn and the rest to get together and find a deal that is acceptable to all. But at moment corbyn only interested in himself and pm ambitions
Hold on. May has had over 2 years to work with other MP's to find something that would work. But she only wants to now. Surely that is on her? Not sure you can blame Corbyn for that tbh. May went straight in, starting article 50 before even thinking about it, and has led us to this impasse because of her red lines on freedom of movement and the single market.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:04 pm
pembroke allan wrote:Yes she did but when the deal was announced other parties knew wasn't acceptable so why not say so then instead of waiting untill last minute to say wasn't acceptable? Now you see reason why they didn't but anyway as long as don't remain both bothered what is reached
epping blue wrote:You hold on. 95% of labour MP'S Are completely apposed to this or indeed any deal to exit the EU. Why the f**k is that not labour policy and why was there absolutely no campaining on this stance in the 2017 general election.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:14 pm
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:45 pm
howbluewasmyvalley wrote:Brilliant reaction on QT tonight in favour of walking away with the so-called No Deal ie WTO etc. Fair play chwarae teg to Derby. They were cheering! Author panelist Isabelle Oakshott spot on. Diane Abbott an absolute embarrassment. Why would Labour put her on this panel? Bizarre.
Block 111 - Tony Benn RIP sadly misssed.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:58 pm