O/T Brexit & Theresa May

To be blunt, I don't believe that version of events.

This is a perfectly valid opinion.

Other perfectly valid opinions include....

The Earth is Flat
Climate Change is a Myth
Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK
The Moon Landing was a Hoax

They are valid opinions but do not mean squat unless they are backed up by verifiable evidence.

Without evidence they are are called conspiracy theories.

Christian trade unionist was a pretty good template for recruitment by the national socialist movement back then, by the way.

Source Wikipedia referencing Text's in German and French

Studies have shown that collaboration was a phenomenon in all layers of society. There was, however, an over-representation of civil servants among the collaborators. Farmers were under-represented, while workers made up the same percentage of collaborators as they did of the general population.

To be blunt, I don't believe that version of events.

This is a perfectly valid opinion.

Other perfectly valid opinions include....

The Earth is Flat
Climate Change is a Myth
Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK
The Moon Landing was a Hoax

They are valid opinions but do not mean squat unless they are backed up by verifiable evidence.

Without evidence they are are called conspiracy theories.

What am I , Simon Wiesenthal ?
You're wrong about opinions of course. I merely stated mine, and I don't need to prove it to you or anyone else because I'm not prosecuting him.
I could actually make a very persuasive argument for all the things you've listed there , incidentally, but that's hardly the issue .
Your little table of the occupations of collaborators is irrelevant on two levels . Firstly because my point went to people who described themselves as "Christian" trade unionists, which was code for opposing communist trade unions by means of the Nazi ideology of exterminating them together with many other unfortunate targets of their fanaticism. Secondly , joining the German Army, either as a volunteer or a conscript, is far more than mere collaboration.
In point of fact I'm generally aware of matters concerning those who escaped justice in Belgium and Luxembourg by bribery and the patronage of Der Spinne and Odessa, and I can assure you that I was unaware of any recent articles or accusations when I made the comment in question.

I can also assure you that there are plenty of conspiracies, and that those who conduct them must feel very clever when they can get people who don't really know the facts to join a chorus of accusation and ridicule against anyone who questions them.

But, further to that, believe what you want to believe. Won't make any difference and maybe it'll bring you a sense of security.

Roll on Wexit.

The Earth is Flat
Climate Change is a Myth
Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK
The Moon Landing was a Hoax

I could actually make a very persuasive argument for all the things you've listed there , incidentally, but that's hardly the issue .

Please do so. It will surely only add to your credibility?

Firstly because my point went to people who described themselves as "Christian" trade unionists, which was code for opposing communist trade unions by means of the Nazi ideology of exterminating them together with many other unfortunate targets of their fanaticism

Yes the Nazi's were famous for their toleration of Trade Unionism

Persecution of Trade Unionists - Victims of Nazi Persecution

Firstly because my point went to people who described themselves as "Christian" trade unionists, which was code for opposing communist trade unions by means of the Nazi ideology of exterminating them together with many other unfortunate targets of their fanaticism

Yes the Nazi's were famous for their toleration of Trade Unionism

Persecution of Trade Unionists - Victims of Nazi Persecution

Just like the Communists, Joe Stalin loved Trade Unions.

Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk love it and are trying to push it through as quickly as possible, which means it is an absolutely shit deal for us !!!

Looks like it will be a No deal and a New PM by April !!!

Get Warnock in he would sort em out

Not if it means May gets the City job.

Six relegations in a row

Secondly , joining the German Army, either as a volunteer or a conscript, is far more than mere collaboration.

Source

The Luxembourgish general strike of 1942 was a manifestation of passive resistance when Luxembourg was occupied by Nazi Germany during World War II. The strikes opposed a directive that conscripted young Luxembourgers into the Wehrmacht. A nationwide general strike, originating in Wiltz, paralysed the country and led to the occupying German authorities responding violently by sentencing 21 strikers to death.

Following the German invasion of Luxembourg on May 10, 1940, Luxembourg was briefly placed under military occupation. On August 2, 1940, the military government was dissolved and replaced by a civilian government under the leadership of the German civilian administrator of the adjoining German district. The Luxembourg population was declared to be German and was to use German as its only language; the German authorities, under the orders of the Gauleiter Gustav Simon, developed a robust policy of germanization. Furthermore, on August 30, 1942, Gustav Simon announced that all Luxembourger males born between 1920 and 1927 were to be conscripted into the Wehrmacht to fight against the Allies.

Is this a subject that your really want to be misrepresenting to serve your needs?

Maybe you should stick to arguing the earth is flat as it does not disrespect the memories of many who suffered at the hands of Nazi Occupation?

Why do we have to pay £39 billion to leave? For once I agree with Trump, tell them to f..k off or even sue THEM.

Spot on they've got our trousers down, don't trust any of the *****

I think ots been a stitch ip from the start

tell Barnier to feck off

I voted leave but politicians have made a complete mess of it and I would welcome a second vote now.

Also I'm so disappointed with the calibre of MP's on both sides of the house that when we leave they would be incapable of leading us forward into the big wide world. I'm not afraid of an initial downturn and hardship before we become a trading powerhouse again but look who we could have leading us. May. Boris, Mogg, Corbyn, Abbott. Enough said.

And that is exactly the trap the EU planted the moment the UK voted for something they didn't want. What this country needs now is some backbone to stand up to the EU.

A no deal will be disruptive but will pass within a few months. That short pain is worth it to rid ourselves of the undemocratic dictatorial institution which calls itself the European Union,

Agreed No deal it is everyone should start getting used to this, as at this moment that is exactly what is going to happen !!!

If anyone wants to know what an independent Wales would look like, go to Albania. We are bankrolled by England to a hefty degree, and would quickly become a basket case without that money.

True

I voted leave but politicians have made a complete mess of it and I would welcome a second vote now.

Also I'm so disappointed with the calibre of MP's on both sides of the house that when we leave they would be incapable of leading us forward into the big wide world. I'm not afraid of an initial downturn and hardship before we become a trading powerhouse again but look who we could have leading us. May. Boris, Mogg, Corbyn, Abbott. Enough said.

And that is exactly the trap the EU planted the moment the UK voted for something they didn't want. What this country needs now is some backbone to stand up to the EU.

A no deal will be disruptive but will pass within a few months. That short pain is worth it to rid ourselves of the undemocratic dictatorial institution which calls itself the European Union,

100% agree

A 'no deal' scenario will pass just as unobtrusively as the original (surprise to the politician class only) 'no' did

Voted 'Brexit' and my stance hasn't changed. Indeed, it's solidified in the face of some sinister (but clever) EU tactics

We went from the biggest empire in the world to a has been nation, which is a laughing stock of the world. What happened?

Not Boris or Rees-Mog at their tub thumping best would impose a deal that puts a border between the Irish,or at least it's hoped so.

If anyone wants to know what an independent Wales would look like, go to Albania. We are bankrolled by England to a hefty degree, and would quickly become a basket case without that money.

True

Funnily enough we also get billions of the EU. Wales had been classed as on of the poorest countries on the EU hence why we get alot of AID of the EU.

As you can tell from that paragraph I voted to remain however coming to terms of the disastrous result ( in my humble Opinion ofcourse) I sincerely hope that part of the deal the EU will help pay for the South Wales metro as they said they would. We are entitled to it now just needs the go ahead.

Also, thinking about leaving Europe I do believe it can work but with this government? No f*cking chance. Personally if I had a job offer in Europe id leave in a heartbeat. Which would be hard as I'd leave behind City and I am actually annoyingly slightly patriotic to Britain.

But I can honestly see the deal being exactly the same as what we have now which would be hysterical. I was pissed off with both campaigns as neither had an actual plan but slagged each other off.

I'm not gonna bother going on about how leaving the EU is a big mistake cause what's the point? I've argued with plenty of people but they don't listen.

Agreed No deal it is everyone should start getting used to this, as at this moment that is exactly what is going to happen !!!

I will start stockpiling tins of corned beef and fruit salad immediately!

Secondly , joining the German Army, either as a volunteer or a conscript, is far more than mere collaboration.

Source

The Luxembourgish general strike of 1942 was a manifestation of passive resistance when Luxembourg was occupied by Nazi Germany during World War II. The strikes opposed a directive that conscripted young Luxembourgers into the Wehrmacht. A nationwide general strike, originating in Wiltz, paralysed the country and led to the occupying German authorities responding violently by sentencing 21 strikers to death.

Following the German invasion of Luxembourg on May 10, 1940, Luxembourg was briefly placed under military occupation. On August 2, 1940, the military government was dissolved and replaced by a civilian government under the leadership of the German civilian administrator of the adjoining German district. The Luxembourg population was declared to be German and was to use German as its only language; the German authorities, under the orders of the Gauleiter Gustav Simon, developed a robust policy of germanization. Furthermore, on August 30, 1942, Gustav Simon announced that all Luxembourger males born between 1920 and 1927 were to be conscripted into the Wehrmacht to fight against the Allies.

Is this a subject that your really want to be misrepresenting to serve your needs?

Maybe you should stick to arguing the earth is flat as it does not disrespect the memories of many who suffered at the hands of Nazi Occupation?

How old are you ? You have no idea how people suffered in those times or you wouldn't have to start cutting and pasting the Google version of events. The fact that the Nazis announced that people in occupied countries had a duty to fight against the allies didn't mean that they all did so.
You say that I'm misrepresenting something, which I'm not, and that its to serve my own needs. Well, I wonder what needs you speak of ? I don't mind telling something which happened , but if you don't choose to believe it, I have no need to convince you.
If anything, I might think you've got a need to reconcile your support for some bad people by repeating their version and spin , which is intended to get them out of an awkward position but maybe you need to agree with it in case it interferes with your own sense of pseudo moralities.
You'd have to read an awful lot of stuff to be in a position to form a reliable opinion, and have a lot of experience to understand it and put it into context with other matters, philosophies and events. I actually don't think you're likely to go to that much effort to be honest , so if you're happy with what you believe that's your affair.

Agreed No deal it is everyone should start getting used to this, as at this moment that is exactly what is going to happen !!!

I will start stockpiling tins of corned beef and fruit salad immediately!

Dave,

Here's the grim reality for these reactionary Brexit flat earthers:

1. IF (MASSIVE if!) we crash out and properly leave the EU the remaining 27 will achieve even closer integration and develop a European Army, probably together with the rest of the political paraphernalia such as the posts of Prime Minister, Treasurer, Foreign Secretary, and Defence Secretary. Without UK constantly shackling further development of the project it is likely to gain traction and expand during our absence.

2. The adoption of the Euro as common currency might well be insisted upon for any new applicants to the EU.

3. UK will of course lose the privileges we currently enjoy such as our rebate and veto when we have left.

4 WHEN (NOT if) in years to come a more enlightened younger generation of Brits plead to re-enter the EU because of the unmitigated disaster of Brexit, the irony is that for your average Brexiter the European landscape will be far less palatable than it is even now.

Agreed No deal it is everyone should start getting used to this, as at this moment that is exactly what is going to happen !!!

I will start stockpiling tins of corned beef and fruit salad immediately!

Dave,

Here's the grim reality for these reactionary Brexit flat earthers:

1. IF (MASSIVE if!) we crash out and properly leave the EU the remaining 27 will achieve even closer integration and develop a European Army, probably together with the rest of the political paraphernalia such as the posts of Prime Minister, Treasurer, Foreign Secretary, and Defence Secretary. Without UK constantly shackling further development of the project it is likely to gain traction and expand during our absence.

2. The adoption of the Euro as common currency might well be insisted upon for any new applicants to the EU.

3. UK will of course lose the privileges we currently enjoy such as our rebate and veto when we have left.

4 WHEN (NOT if) in years to come a more enlightened younger generation of Brits plead to re-enter the EU because of the unmitigated disaster of Brexit, the irony is that for your average Brexiter the European landscape will be far less palatable than it is even now.

1 Would you be happy with the defence of our country being in foreign hands.
2 Ireland’s economy is overheating but they are unable to raise interest rates to cool it down because Brussels says who does what in the Eurozone.
3 we put in more than we get out, they give us nothing, it’s not their money it’s ours.
Finally your more enlightened bollox. Leftist filth are polluting the minds of our youth. Self Identification, children to decide their own gender, White privilege, no platforming any view they disagree with, micro aggression safe space shite.

Last edited by Jock on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A European Army.. ha ha that’ll be a laugh. They’ll never cooperate with each other, like they don’t now.

Dave, we’ve been through the referencing of Newspapers as reliable sources of information(they’re not). Most of your points are another’s point of view, after the Editor has decided what you want to read. You could even go so far as saying it’s a misrepresentation to serve ones needs.

The piece on corned beef and fruit salad could be true tho’.

How old are you ? You have no idea how people suffered in those times or you wouldn't have to start cutting and pasting the Google version of events.

If your point here is are you old enough to have been alive in Nazi Occupied Europe during world war 2 then the answer is.

No I am not over 72 years old, I was born in 1967 as my account name suggests.

Does this mean I should not believe anything about World War 2? Are we sure it happened? Maybe the Holocaust did not happen because I was not there to witness it?

The fact that the Nazis announced that people in occupied countries had a duty to fight against the allies didn't mean that they all did so.

Did you not read the bit about strikers being executed for passive resistance? Are you saying this did not happen and it is a conspiracy?

Was this also wrong because I am not 72 years old?

You say that I'm misrepresenting something, which I'm not, and that its to serve my own needs. Well, I wonder what needs you speak of ? I don't mind telling something which happened , but if you don't choose to believe it, I have no need to convince you.

You spent 3 lines here. You started as if to address a point and then said absolutely nothing.

You keep saying that you know things but are not going to tell me.

This is the language of the schoolyard.

If anything, I might think you've got a need to reconcile your support for some bad people by repeating their version and spin , which is intended to get them out of an awkward position but maybe you need to agree with it in case it interferes with your own sense of pseudo moralities.

You'd have to read an awful lot of stuff to be in a position to form a reliable opinion, and have a lot of experience to understand it and put it into context with other matters, philosophies and events. I actually don't think you're likely to go to that much effort to be honest , so if you're happy with what you believe that's your affair.

The rest is just a mixture of personal attacks and saying nothing.

Your last post can be summed up as "You are not 72 years old so you don't know and I do but I am not telling you"

I return the question: How old are you?

Dave, we’ve been through the referencing of Newspapers as reliable sources of information(they’re not). Most of your points are another’s point of view, after the Editor has decided what you want to read. You could even go so far as saying it’s a misrepresentation to serve ones needs.

There are reputable news sources about that report the facts impartially and separate out opinion.

and then there is The Sun which are largely mouth pieces for it's Multi Millionaire owner's business interests.

But all are at least regulated.

Social Media groups and Pressure groups are far more insidious. Their funding is about as transparent as one of Sam Hammam's Panamanian companies and they rely on people being suitably outraged by lies and misrepresentation without questioning it's validity. You see much of it parroted on these boards.

There is a far more money to be made in creating news than reporting it. Ask Rupert Murdoch.

Like with politicians.... Just because some politicians lie does not mean all politicians are liars.

Finally your more enlightened bollox. Leftist filth are polluting the minds of our youth.

The minds of our youth are obviously much better off in your hands.

How old are you ? You have no idea how people suffered in those times or you wouldn't have to start cutting and pasting the Google version of events.

If your point here is are you old enough to have been alive in Nazi Occupied Europe during world war 2 then the answer is.

No I am not over 72 years old, I was born in 1967 as my account name suggests.

Does this mean I should not believe anything about World War 2? Are we sure it happened? Maybe the Holocaust did not happen because I was not there to witness it?

The fact that the Nazis announced that people in occupied countries had a duty to fight against the allies didn't mean that they all did so.

Did you not read the bit about strikers being executed for passive resistance? Are you saying this did not happen and it is a conspiracy?

Was this also wrong because I am not 72 years old?

You say that I'm misrepresenting something, which I'm not, and that its to serve my own needs. Well, I wonder what needs you speak of ? I don't mind telling something which happened , but if you don't choose to believe it, I have no need to convince you.

You spent 3 lines here. You started as if to address a point and then said absolutely nothing.

You keep saying that you know things but are not going to tell me.

This is the language of the schoolyard.

If anything, I might think you've got a need to reconcile your support for some bad people by repeating their version and spin , which is intended to get them out of an awkward position but maybe you need to agree with it in case it interferes with your own sense of pseudo moralities.

You'd have to read an awful lot of stuff to be in a position to form a reliable opinion, and have a lot of experience to understand it and put it into context with other matters, philosophies and events. I actually don't think you're likely to go to that much effort to be honest , so if you're happy with what you believe that's your affair.

The rest is just a mixture of personal attacks and saying nothing.

Your last post can be summed up as "You are not 72 years old so you don't know and I do but I am not telling you"

I return the question: How old are you?

I didn't know that a number in someone's screen name indicated their age. I don't think it generally does actually.
I was about to be arsey with you, but at least you put a bit of effort into a reply and, in a way it's not a bad attempt to rebut me, so I'm not going to be entirely critical. In fact I appreciate that you've taken the trouble to do so.
Look, we work things out and we form opinions and conclusions to the best of our abilities and with the best information we have, don't we ? During this process, it is often more productive to eliminate false information than gather facts indiscriminately and that's the bit where we differ .
I can tell you a lot about Ancient Rome or the Hundred Years' War for example, but a lot of it is probably bollocks because I can only rely upon what we have been told and what was recorded. We can't get anywhere near the original source material or speak to witnesses at this stage and so we'd be wise to realise that our knowledge is dubious.
In this case , and without going into the ins and outs, I've had plenty of contact with those who were directly involved in these events and the numerous mis recordings and cleaned up versions of that period , and I've delved into such matters at very great length. In this process I've reached conclusions but they came about in a complex and long drawn out manner which I couldn't possibly begin to address here.
Well, you may say that this is a convenient get out on my part , and it wouldn't be an unreasonable accusation. All I can say though is that since you are clearly doing your best ,( which is all any of us can do ), to examine and study such things, you may well change your mind as you go more deeply into it.
I'm actually sorry if I seemed to be attacking you personally. That was not my intention - goading you into looking at the stuff you've read I will admit to , but if I seemed unpleasant I aplogise.
It's very hard to unpick the bullshit upon which the public are fed , and it takes a while because it's very carefully constructed in many cases. Maybe you want to do that and maybe you don't , but one thing which our conversation here has shown is that you'd only be convinced if you found this stuff out for yourself . That's not a bad thing at all - I can hardly suggest that you should be suspicious of information put out by interested parties with hidden agendas and in the same breath tell you that you should just believe me without question.
I think you're on the right side of the street by nature and so I think you may come to see things slightly differently in the end.

Finally your more enlightened bollox. Leftist filth are polluting the minds of our youth.

The minds of our youth are obviously much better off in your hands.

Perhaps you can show me where I said that. The education of future generations should not be in the hands of Euro Superstate supporting Marxist scum.
The real issue here is democracy is being subverted in the U.K. a free vote is being overturned because the powers that be don’t want to implement the will of the people. I guess Mark Twain was right when he said “ if voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it”

I didn't know that a number in someone's screen name indicated their age. I don't think it generally does actually.
I was about to be arsey with you, but at least you put a bit of effort into a reply and, in a way it's not a bad attempt to rebut me, so I'm not going to be entirely critical. In fact I appreciate that you've taken the trouble to do so.
Look, we work things out and we form opinions and conclusions to the best of our abilities and with the best information we have, don't we ? During this process, it is often more productive to eliminate false information than gather facts indiscriminately and that's the bit where we differ .
I can tell you a lot about Ancient Rome or the Hundred Years' War for example, but a lot of it is probably bollocks because I can only rely upon what we have been told and what was recorded. We can't get anywhere near the original source material or speak to witnesses at this stage and so we'd be wise to realise that our knowledge is dubious.
In this case , and without going into the ins and outs, I've had plenty of contact with those who were directly involved in these events and the numerous mis recordings and cleaned up versions of that period , and I've delved into such matters at very great length. In this process I've reached conclusions but they came about in a complex and long drawn out manner which I couldn't possibly begin to address here.
Well, you may say that this is a convenient get out on my part , and it wouldn't be an unreasonable accusation. All I can say though is that since you are clearly doing your best ,( which is all any of us can do ), to examine and study such things, you may well change your mind as you go more deeply into it.
I'm actually sorry if I seemed to be attacking you personally. That was not my intention - goading you into looking at the stuff you've read I will admit to , but if I seemed unpleasant I aplogise.
It's very hard to unpick the bullshit upon which the public are fed , and it takes a while because it's very carefully constructed in many cases. Maybe you want to do that and maybe you don't , but one thing which our conversation here has shown is that you'd only be convinced if you found this stuff out for yourself . That's not a bad thing at all - I can hardly suggest that you should be suspicious of information put out by interested parties with hidden agendas and in the same breath tell you that you should just believe me without question.
I think you're on the right side of the street by nature and so I think you may come to see things slightly differently in the end.

You are using a lot of words to say nothing here.

I will keep it short - "Don't believe what you read" is an argument that Holocaust deniers use is it not?

If I do not believe what I read, how do I know the Holocaust happened?

Perhaps you can show me where I said that.

You did not I said it with more that a little irony.

The education of future generations should not be in the hands of Euro Superstate supporting Marxist scum.

There is a valid point here (not necessarily true) but nobody is going to look past "Marxist Scum" and assess your contribution based on that.

The real issue here is democracy is being subverted in the U.K. a free vote is being overturned because the powers that be don’t want to implement the will of the people. I guess Mark Twain was right when he said “ if voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it”

Again there is a valid point here.

rebuttal.....

Democracy is about reflecting the will of the people.

In 2016 the referendum produced an almost even split (48/51) result.

In 1975 There was an overwhelming vote to join the EU (67/33)

Polling suggests that were a vote to happen today the result would be (54/46) in favour of Remain.

Which of these should we ignore and is it democratic to do so?

The point I make here is that a referendum is only a snapshot of public opinion at a single moment in time. Opinions and circumstances change.