OT: BREXIT (POLL)

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Is the EU effectively showing the UK the 'exit' door with it's current stance?

Poll ended at Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:14 pm

Yes, completely
25
56%
No, it's still posturing
16
36%
Tough to tell at this time
4
9%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:22 am

So when will the third referendum take place Dave...you know, the one to review the the referendum that reviewed the referendum that reviewed the first.

Have you been watching Life of Brian again?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:56 am

Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:They are trying to push us into a second referendum.


Source: The Evening Standard 5 September 2018

The Evening Standard wrote:Brexit news latest: Brits would vote 59-41 to remain in EU if second referendum was held, new poll shows

Editor of Evening Standard Gideon Fekkin Osborne, who told us the economy, house prices and employment would crash immediately after the Brexit Vote? :lol:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:03 am

Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:As i said above, we will have another vote. The last one was said to be a once in a lifetime vote according to all involved, and the people had their say. If "leave" win the next one, I am sure the remainers will want a best of five once in a lifetime vote.


If you know the result won't change then surely it is not a problem for you.

The result of the first referendum was 51.9% to 48.1% hardly overwhelming.

People are far better informed now of the consequences of BREXIT than they were last time.

and you can put your mortgage on a Leave win and clean up with the bookies. Unless of course you think a better informed public would vote differently?

So how are people better informed, explain the negatives and positives.
We had a Democratic Vote, now absolute scum like Soros, Blair, Mandelson, and Campbell want another vote, after two years of Sky, BBC, Channel 4 etc peddling lies about the sky falling in when we leave. Tell me something do you think Soros is pro remain because it would benefit ordinary people?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:13 am

City Slicker wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:As i said above, we will have another vote. The last one was said to be a once in a lifetime vote according to all involved, and the people had their say. If "leave" win the next one, I am sure the remainers will want a best of five once in a lifetime vote.


If you know the result won't change then surely it is not a problem for you.

The result of the first referendum was 51.9% to 48.1% hardly overwhelming.

People are far better informed now of the consequences of BREXIT than they were last time.

and you can put your mortgage on a Leave win and clean up with the bookies. Unless of course you think a better informed public would vote differently?


And the vote in 2016 was a second vote anyway so it set a precedent for multiple referendums.

We voted for the Common Market not a federal Eurostate ran by the likes of Junkers as for your better informed dig surely uneducated Brexiteer Voters, like myself, still don’t understand what we’re voting for. We need clever people like you to guide us. Clever people who think they’re voting for the status quo not a block that will decrease the power of individual nation states, who already have a Euro Chancellor with powers to influence sovereign countries fiscal policies, who are demanding control of member states borders, who want an EU Army and who absolutely despise this country and it’s people.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby City Slicker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:26 am

Jock wrote:
City Slicker wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:As i said above, we will have another vote. The last one was said to be a once in a lifetime vote according to all involved, and the people had their say. If "leave" win the next one, I am sure the remainers will want a best of five once in a lifetime vote.


If you know the result won't change then surely it is not a problem for you.

The result of the first referendum was 51.9% to 48.1% hardly overwhelming.

People are far better informed now of the consequences of BREXIT than they were last time.

and you can put your mortgage on a Leave win and clean up with the bookies. Unless of course you think a better informed public would vote differently?


And the vote in 2016 was a second vote anyway so it set a precedent for multiple referendums.

We voted for the Common Market not a federal Eurostate ran by the likes of Junkers as for your better informed dig surely uneducated Brexiteer Voters, like myself, still don’t understand what we’re voting for. We need clever people like you to guide us. Clever people who think they’re voting for the status quo not a block that will decrease the power of individual nation states, who already have a Euro Chancellor with powers to influence sovereign countries fiscal policies, who are demanding control of member states borders, who want an EU Army and who absolutely despise this country and it’s people.


I never thought I was voting for the status quo when I voted Remain. I was fully aware the final destination would be a federal Europe.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby City Slicker » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 am

llan bluebird wrote:Any democracy reserves the rights to change their minds.

With that in mind if we have a 3rd referendum on membership of the EU and we vote to remain, how often should the population be polled to ensure they haven't further changed their minds ?

Should there be a fixed term for instance every 5 years ?


No the answer is.....no more bloody referendums! We are a representational democracy; General Elections are adequate enough.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:37 pm

City Slicker wrote:
Jock wrote:
City Slicker wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:As i said above, we will have another vote. The last one was said to be a once in a lifetime vote according to all involved, and the people had their say. If "leave" win the next one, I am sure the remainers will want a best of five once in a lifetime vote.


If you know the result won't change then surely it is not a problem for you.

The result of the first referendum was 51.9% to 48.1% hardly overwhelming.

People are far better informed now of the consequences of BREXIT than they were last time.

and you can put your mortgage on a Leave win and clean up with the bookies. Unless of course you think a better informed public would vote differently?


And the vote in 2016 was a second vote anyway so it set a precedent for multiple referendums.

We voted for the Common Market not a federal Eurostate ran by the likes of Junkers as for your better informed dig surely uneducated Brexiteer Voters, like myself, still don’t understand what we’re voting for. We need clever people like you to guide us. Clever people who think they’re voting for the status quo not a block that will decrease the power of individual nation states, who already have a Euro Chancellor with powers to influence sovereign countries fiscal policies, who are demanding control of member states borders, who want an EU Army and who absolutely despise this country and it’s people.


I never thought I was voting for the status quo when I voted Remain. I was fully aware the final destination would be a federal Europe.

If only Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, stupidly when Cameron said leave meant leaving the single market and the Customs Union I thought that’s what I was voting for, I now of course realise that is “hard Brexit” and what we all voted for was staying in the EU, under the jurisdiction of their courts but without any voting rights or influence. :roll:
Walk away, keep our £39B and trade with the other 94% of the planet.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:38 pm

City Slicker wrote:
Jock wrote:
City Slicker wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:As i said above, we will have another vote. The last one was said to be a once in a lifetime vote according to all involved, and the people had their say. If "leave" win the next one, I am sure the remainers will want a best of five once in a lifetime vote.


If you know the result won't change then surely it is not a problem for you.

The result of the first referendum was 51.9% to 48.1% hardly overwhelming.

People are far better informed now of the consequences of BREXIT than they were last time.

and you can put your mortgage on a Leave win and clean up with the bookies. Unless of course you think a better informed public would vote differently?


And the vote in 2016 was a second vote anyway so it set a precedent for multiple referendums.

We voted for the Common Market not a federal Eurostate ran by the likes of Junkers as for your better informed dig surely uneducated Brexiteer Voters, like myself, still don’t understand what we’re voting for. We need clever people like you to guide us. Clever people who think they’re voting for the status quo not a block that will decrease the power of individual nation states, who already have a Euro Chancellor with powers to influence sovereign countries fiscal policies, who are demanding control of member states borders, who want an EU Army and who absolutely despise this country and it’s people.


I never thought I was voting for the status quo when I voted Remain. I was fully aware the final destination would be a federal Europe.

The vote was in 1975, I doubt you voted in it.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:43 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:45 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:50 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:52 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:04 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:08 pm

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Sven » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:30 pm

Dave67 wrote:Image


Now you're getting pathetic! :oops:

This thread was about Brexit and the UK Government v EU position and not the Polish people! :roll:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:20 pm

Yes, very subtle Dave..any more?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:50 pm

rumpo kid wrote:Yes, very subtle Dave..any more?


My source is the BBC and the Cambridgeshire Police.

Are you really trying to suggest that "Polish Workers taking our Jobs" was not a factor in the referendum?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby murphy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 pm

Bananas wrote:Never mind Fekin Brexit, roll on Wexit. Wales part of a strong European Union and Fek the English once and for all :thumbup:


Wales going independent and then joining the EU is going from one union to another.

It's pointless!
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:42 pm

Dave67 wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:Yes, very subtle Dave..any more?


My source is the BBC and the Cambridgeshire Police.

Are you really trying to suggest that "Polish Workers taking our Jobs" was not a factor in the referendum?


The only one banging on about Polish workers is you my friend. Stick to facts, not base propaganda.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:24 pm

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:We kept it for years after that for treason and another offence till it was eventually binned as an option by a Jack Straw agreement with the EU. Interestingly, we could bring it back once we leave if we want to, but that's by the way .

Treason was not punishable by the death penalty, High Treason was the crime you are referring to. Not sure what it adds to the greater point but you seemed to want to get the facts straight.
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It certainly is undemocratic to hold a vote as we did on leaving the EU then try to ignore the outcome, but it's not undemocratic to ignore popular opinions which have not been put to a vote though

A second referendum is not ignoring the first, quite the contrary. It would be the only legitimate way of addressing a change in public opinion in light of the events that followed first referendum.

If you accept that a referendum was an appropriate method for making the decision then I fail to see how it is not an appropriate method for reviewing the decision.

This leaves the point that it is undemocratic to review the decision. I fail to see how asking the public what they think undemocratic. In 1973 67% voted to join the Common Market was is undemocratic to hold a referendum to leave?



Well you're quite wrong about treason, and trying to distinguish between high treason and low treason has been somewhat pointless since 1351. If you'd like to know , they could technically have beheaded you for that up till 1973, and the other offence for which the death penalty was retained was military arson , ( " burning the Queens ships in her arsenals " I think.
I agree that it's got bugger all to do with the subject but since you were the one who raised it, your comment seems strange.

Now, regarding your suggestion that when we hold a referendum we follow up with a subsequent referrendum to "review" the outcome, well of course that would mean another referrendum after that and another then another ad infinitum. No referendum would count and the process would become quite pointless .

The comparison with the fact that this referendum contradicted the one in 1973 is entirely preposterous !

It was a different question for a start wasn't it ? We decide quite separately when to get into the bath and when to get out of it, and when we get out of the bath that doesn't reverse our decision to bathe in the first place. No, of course not - it is a decision that we have now completed our necessary ablutions and that it's time to get out and carry on with something else .

It's also very different to reconsider something many decades later when we find that may have made a mistake than it would be to do so immediately and for no other reason than the fact that the minority who lost the referrendum don't like the outcome.

When we elect governments about half the voters won't like the outcome and they will get a chance to vote again in the next election , but we don't just immediately hold another one to placate those who lost the argument do we ?

No, I'm afraid that there is only one legal and correct course of action here. Parliament voted to put a direct question to the electorate ,did so , and they must now enact that decision . When all the whining has subsided , if they did anything else then the electorate would lose confidence in democracy and they themselves would lose legitimacy .
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:29 pm

Unfortunately, Momentum don’t operate democratically Sir Jim..
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby krabb » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:38 pm

THe EU need our money..... Spain and Greece all but bankrupt again..... f**k ummm let them sink :ayatollah:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:52 pm

SirJimmySchoular wrote:The comparison with the fact that this referendum contradicted the one in 1973 is entirely preposterous !

It was a different question for a start wasn't it ?


Errrrm.... no it wasn't.

you might want to do a simple google check before using emotive terms like preposterous.

1975 Referendum Question wrote:The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

permitting a simple YES / NO answer (to be marked with a single (X)).


1975 Referendum Question wrote:Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:37 pm

SirJimmySchoular wrote:Well you're quite wrong about treason, and trying to distinguish between high treason and low treason has been somewhat pointless since 1351. If you'd like to know , they could technically have beheaded you for that up till 1973, and the other offence for which the death penalty was retained was military arson , ( " burning the Queens ships in her arsenals " I think.
I agree that it's got bugger all to do with the subject but since you were the one who raised it, your comment seems strange.


again I am not "quite wrong".

Wikipedia:
High treason was formerly distinguished from petty treason, a treason committed against a subject of the sovereign, the scope of which was limited by statute to the murder of a legal superior. Petty treason comprised the murder of a master by his servant, of a husband by his wife, or of a bishop. Petty treason ceased to be a distinct offence from murder in 1828, and consequently high treason is today often referred to simply as treason.

I grant you that their usage is somewhat interchangeable today but the capital punishment offences were indeed all High Treason.

One that you missed was Arson in royal dockyards repealed in 1969.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:42 pm

rumpo kid wrote:The only one banging on about Polish workers is you my friend. Stick to facts, not base propaganda.


The Daily Express

There are plenty more where that came from - but i suspect you know that.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Sven » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:08 pm

Dave67 wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:The only one banging on about Polish workers is you my friend. Stick to facts, not base propaganda.


The Daily Express

There are plenty more where that came from - but i suspect you know that.


He meant 'on this thread' but you already know that, agenda-laden fella! ;)

You're having a bit of a 'mare here trying to justify your post(s) when it would have been easier to let it go!

As for 'jobless' Britons, you might want to consider that the state system that often (not always) rewards cheats, the lazy and the feckless (often missing out those in real need) means that those same people get the same (or more!) money for NOT working, so they are unwilling to do the 'menial' tasks that the Poles seem to accept and often excel at!

You brought up Polish workers when the OP was about whether Brexit is being sorted out by the EU itself rather than the UK Government (some) elected to carry it out

Since then, all you have tried to do is perpetuate your unwarranted and flawed comments.

If it helps, I have some good Polish friends who would be more than prepared to (amicably) discuss your views and opinions on their worth to the UK economy and share their views on why many Brits won't (not can't) do the same! :thumbright:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby paulh_85 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:12 pm

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:The comparison with the fact that this referendum contradicted the one in 1973 is entirely preposterous !

It was a different question for a start wasn't it ?


Errrrm.... no it wasn't.

you might want to do a simple google check before using emotive terms like preposterous.

1975 Referendum Question wrote:The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

permitting a simple YES / NO answer (to be marked with a single (X)).


1975 Referendum Question wrote:Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union


i mean... you sort of answered it in your first post.

the vote in 1973 wasnt for the EU we currently have - we had no vote on that.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Steve Zodiak » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:30 pm

paulh_85 wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:The comparison with the fact that this referendum contradicted the one in 1973 is entirely preposterous !

It was a different question for a start wasn't it ?


Errrrm.... no it wasn't.

you might want to do a simple google check before using emotive terms like preposterous.

1975 Referendum Question wrote:The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

permitting a simple YES / NO answer (to be marked with a single (X)).


1975 Referendum Question wrote:Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union


i mean... you sort of answered it in your first post.

the vote in 1973 wasnt for the EU we currently have - we had no vote on that.


I voted back in the 70's in favour of remaining. I think we had stopped calling it the Common Market by then, and it was now the European Economic Community. The name sort of gives itself away as to what we were voting for back then. Nothing about handing over law making powers to unelected bureaucrats or being told we can't deport people preaching hate on the streets of Britain while being wanted for terrorist offences overseas. No talk of a European superstate back then, it was all about economics and made perfect sense at the time. If I had known what it was going to turn into, I would have voted leave, and I suspect so would a lot of others.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:58 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:
paulh_85 wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:The comparison with the fact that this referendum contradicted the one in 1973 is entirely preposterous !

It was a different question for a start wasn't it ?


Errrrm.... no it wasn't.

you might want to do a simple google check before using emotive terms like preposterous.

1975 Referendum Question wrote:The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

permitting a simple YES / NO answer (to be marked with a single (X)).


1975 Referendum Question wrote:Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union


i mean... you sort of answered it in your first post.

the vote in 1973 wasnt for the EU we currently have - we had no vote on that.


I voted back in the 70's in favour of remaining. I think we had stopped calling it the Common Market by then, and it was now the European Economic Community. The name sort of gives itself away as to what we were voting for back then. Nothing about handing over law making powers to unelected bureaucrats or being told we can't deport people preaching hate on the streets of Britain while being wanted for terrorist offences overseas. No talk of a European superstate back then, it was all about economics and made perfect sense at the time. If I had known what it was going to turn into, I would have voted leave, and I suspect so would a lot of others.

I certainly would have, that fat nonce Heath was well aware of the ultimate goal of a federal Euro Superstate.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:02 pm

Sven wrote:He meant 'on this thread' but you already know that, agenda-laden fella! ;)
You're having a bit of a 'mare here trying to justify your post(s) when it would have been easier to let it go!

As for 'jobless' Britons, you might want to consider that the state system that often (not always) rewards cheats, the lazy and the feckless (often missing out those in real need) means that those same people get the same (or more!) money for NOT working, so they are unwilling to do the 'menial' tasks that the Poles seem to accept and often excel at!

You brought up Polish workers when the OP was about whether Brexit is being sorted out by the EU itself rather than the UK Government (some) elected to carry it out

Since then, all you have tried to do is perpetuate your unwarranted and flawed comments.

If it helps, I have some good Polish friends who would be more than prepared to (amicably) discuss your views and opinions on their worth to the UK economy and share their views on why many Brits won't (not can't) do the same! :thumbright:

when you have finished playing the person try addressing the argument

pembroke allan wrote:As for better informed on what?

The question was asked as to why we would be better informed in a fresh referendum. I gave a selection of reasons in picture format.

Your response was to attack me, tell me I have lost the argument, some diatribe about most of the unemployed being lazy scroungers and cheats and say you have a Polish friend?

someone is having a mare, it is not me.
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