OT: BREXIT (POLL)

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Is the EU effectively showing the UK the 'exit' door with it's current stance?

Poll ended at Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:14 pm

Yes, completely
25
56%
No, it's still posturing
16
36%
Tough to tell at this time
4
9%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Jock wrote:I certainly would have, that fat nonce Heath was well aware of the ultimate goal of a federal Euro Superstate.


Why do you feel the need to refer to Edward Heath as a fat nonce?

What does this contribute to your argument?

There is no substantive argument here just smear.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Man of Harlech » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:35 pm

llan bluebird wrote:Any democracy reserves the rights to change their minds.

With that in mind if we have a 3rd referendum on membership of the EU and we vote to remain, how often should the population be polled to ensure they haven't further changed their minds ?

Should there be a fixed term for instance every 5 years ?


And if we are going to set a precedent of re-visiting votes that were marginal then we should have another referendum on devolution. 50.3% majority on a 50.2% turnout. Now I did not like that result but hey, that's democracy.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:52 pm

The UK has no history of referendums.

There have only ever been three UK wide referendums in the history of UK Government.

1. 1975 Staying in the EEC.
2. 2011 Proportional representation.
3. 2016 Staying in the EU.

British Democracy is based on Parliamentary Sovereignty which means that referendums cannot tie the hands of government.

A party that calls a referendum and ignores it, however, is likely to not to get a favourable response from the electorate.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:53 pm

[quote="Dave67"]


The question was asked as to why we would be better informed in a fresh referendum. I gave a selection of reasons in picture format.
Your response was to attack me, tell me I have lost the argument.




If I posted a picture of the Paris attacks, and argued that we should leave the EU, it would be an extremely weak and immature case to make. I'd feel a complete Melvin.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:05 pm

paulh_85 wrote:i mean... you sort of answered it in your first post.

the vote in 1973 wasnt for the EU we currently have - we had no vote on that.


We joined the EEC in 1973 by act of parliament not by referendum.

The referendum was in 1975 and asked whether we should stay in the EEC.

In 1975 it was 67% Remain (YES) - 33% Leave (NO)

to extend your argument further the vote we had in 2016 (51.8% - 48.1%) was not for the EU we currently have either - time for another referendum?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:22 pm

rumpo kid wrote:If I posted a picture of the Paris attacks, and argued that we should leave the EU, it would be an extremely weak and immature case to make. I'd feel a complete Melvin.


The pictures

1. Boris Johnson standing in front of a sign - £350 million per week to the NHS
2. Liam Fox - Brexit Deal would be the Easiest Deal in History
3. Graph showing the £1 sterling has devalued by 23% since Brexit Vote.
4. Nigel Farage standing in front of a long queue of Brown faces.
5. David Davis - Business would demand the EU does a deal with the UK
6. Press reports of anti-polish racism proclaiming to be pro Brexit.

All these are either quotes or facts.

I have made no comment in any of them

There is no comment in any of them except from the individuals being quoted. They are a matter of public record.

Please feel free to address any/all of the issues Melvin.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby City Slicker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:28 pm

Man of Harlech wrote:
llan bluebird wrote:Any democracy reserves the rights to change their minds.

With that in mind if we have a 3rd referendum on membership of the EU and we vote to remain, how often should the population be polled to ensure they haven't further changed their minds ?

Should there be a fixed term for instance every 5 years ?


And if we are going to set a precedent of re-visiting votes that were marginal then we should have another referendum on devolution. 50.3% majority on a 50.2% turnout. Now I did not like that result but hey, that's democracy.


I never wanted a referendum; it was conceded to us for the reason of one party's inherent fault line and a possible remedy to it. Naive and dangerous in my opinion. Nevertheless it went ahead. However, given the momentous nature of the argument and possible ramifications, the sensible approach would have been to have had it decided on a supermajority basis and also, to have included 16 and 17 year olds because the impact is going to be proportionally greater on them than any other cohort. The genie has been let out of the bottle and it won't be going back in anytime soon.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Sloper Road » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:48 pm

Never thought we needed a deal as such when i voted to be honest.

The vote was to leave so why are we trying to get a deal. Tell the EU we are leaving ,and this is what we will do when we have, Its not for the EU to to say if they like it or not. We are not asking to leave ,we are telling them we are .

If the EU want to put up a hard boarder in Eire then thats up to them. We dont intend too.

AS it stands now the EU are treating us with no respect, if i was the PM i would start talking to countries like Russia and iran for example about trade deals and that would scare the pants out of them, We should threaten to withdraw from NATO and let the EU fight there own battles, they would shit themselves.

We have proped up The EU with money and taken a lead in defence. They should get nothing from us now..I voted to remain but if there was another vote it would be to leave ,due to the lack of respect shown to this country.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Steve Zodiak » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:00 pm

Dave67 wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:If I posted a picture of the Paris attacks, and argued that we should leave the EU, it would be an extremely weak and immature case to make. I'd feel a complete Melvin.


The pictures

1. Boris Johnson standing in front of a sign - £350 million per week to the NHS
2. Liam Fox - Brexit Deal would be the Easiest Deal in History
3. Graph showing the £1 sterling has devalued by 23% since Brexit Vote.
4. Nigel Farage standing in front of a long queue of Brown faces.
5. David Davis - Business would demand the EU does a deal with the UK
6. Press reports of anti-polish racism proclaiming to be pro Brexit.

All these are either quotes or facts.

I have made no comment in any of them

There is no comment in any of them except from the individuals being quoted. They are a matter of public record.

Please feel free to address any/all of the issues Melvin.


Dave, only the most naive believe the claims made by politicians, whether it be in the run up to a general election or the Brexit referendum. You have listed claims made by one side, but omitted the equally false claims made by the other side. Do you recall what George Osborne said when fighting the remain corner? He said the Conservative manifesto would have to be ripped up in order to save the economy, and the result would be an emergency budget within weeks of a "leave" vote. He talked about all sorts of tax increases to try and save our economy from collapsing. None of this happened, in fact a couple of years later the emergency budget still has not taken place, and our economy has not collapsed to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:07 pm

Sloper Road wrote:Never thought we needed a deal as such when i voted to be honest.

The vote was to leave so why are we trying to get a deal. Tell the EU we are leaving ,and this is what we will do when we have, Its not for the EU to to say if they like it or not. We are not asking to leave ,we are telling them we are .

If the EU want to put up a hard boarder in Eire then thats up to them. We dont intend too.

AS it stands now the EU are treating us with no respect, if i was the PM i would start talking to countries like Russia and iran for example about trade deals and that would scare the pants out of them, We should threaten to withdraw from NATO and let the EU fight there own battles, they would shit themselves.

We have proped up The EU with money and taken a lead in defence. They should get nothing from us now..I voted to remain but if there was another vote it would be to leave ,due to the lack of respect shown to this country.


It is perfectly reasonable to hold this view. It was just not one that was that was mentioned during the referendum and why I believe the electorate are better informed today.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:18 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:Dave, only the most naive believe the claims made by politicians, whether it be in the run up to a general election or the Brexit referendum. You have listed claims made by one side, but omitted the equally false claims made by the other side. Do you recall what George Osborne said when fighting the remain corner? He said the Conservative manifesto would have to be ripped up in order to save the economy, and the result would be an emergency budget within weeks of a "leave" vote. He talked about all sorts of tax increases to try and save our economy from collapsing. None of this happened, in fact a couple of years later the emergency budget still has not taken place, and our economy has not collapsed to the best of my knowledge.


So what you are saying is that, having exposed the lies, we are in a better position now to make an informed decision on Brexit?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Steve Zodiak » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:11 am

Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:Dave, only the most naive believe the claims made by politicians, whether it be in the run up to a general election or the Brexit referendum. You have listed claims made by one side, but omitted the equally false claims made by the other side. Do you recall what George Osborne said when fighting the remain corner? He said the Conservative manifesto would have to be ripped up in order to save the economy, and the result would be an emergency budget within weeks of a "leave" vote. He talked about all sorts of tax increases to try and save our economy from collapsing. None of this happened, in fact a couple of years later the emergency budget still has not taken place, and our economy has not collapsed to the best of my knowledge.


So what you are saying is that, having exposed the lies, we are in a better position now to make an informed decision on Brexit?


Can't understand why certain people always have to twist the words of others to try and get a point of view over. I have said nothing of the sort. The same information is available for those who really look today, just as it was a couple of years ago. The reasons I voted to leave have not changed one bit from two years ago, and nothing new has been said. Instead of twisting words, why not answer my question, and what makes you think anything will be different this time? We will be fed more theories and forecasts and will once again have to do our own homework which will help us to a point, as nobody can tell me 100% what will really happen as nobody has left before.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:52 am

Steve Zodiak wrote:Can't understand why certain people always have to twist the words of others to try and get a point of view over. I have said nothing of the sort.


You made the point that there were a lot of lies on both sides that have been exposed.

I asked the question - are you saying that the electorate is better informed about Brexit?

Apologies if my use of a question mark was taken a a devious means of misreading your meaning.

Punctuation can be very confusing.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Steve Zodiak » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:49 am

Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:Can't understand why certain people always have to twist the words of others to try and get a point of view over. I have said nothing of the sort.


You made the point that there were a lot of lies on both sides that have been exposed.

I asked the question - are you saying that the electorate is better informed about Brexit?

Apologies if my use of a question mark was taken a a devious means of misreading your meaning.

Punctuation can be very confusing.


We don't know is the answer to that. In the main, we are hearing the same claims and counter claims that we heard last time. The "leave" campaign will make a statement that will be ridiculed by the "remainers" and vice versa. We will once again be fed with information that we can either take as being correct because a politician says so, or we can do our own research and make an informed choice. Nothing can be based on previous experience, because no country has left before. Likewise, we cannot look at how things were before we joined the Common Market, as the world has changed a lot since then. The only claims to date made by either side that we can prove or disprove 100% are those that were based on what would happen within a short period after the last referendum, as we now know the answer to that.

I suspect the electorate may have more information now than they did last time, and I also suspect thata most of the new information they have will depend on which newspaper they read and which of the politicians they most trust. Whether or not that information is any more accurate than it was last time is open to debate, as trusting the information in a daily rag or believing everything a politician says is probably not the most sensible thing to do.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby pembroke allan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:53 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Steve Zodiak wrote:Can't understand why certain people always have to twist the words of others to try and get a point of view over. I have said nothing of the sort.


You made the point that there were a lot of lies on both sides that have been exposed.

I asked the question - are you saying that the electorate is better informed about Brexit?

Apologies if my use of a question mark was taken a a devious means of misreading your meaning.

Punctuation can be very confusing.


We don't know is the answer to that. In the main, we are hearing the same claims and counter claims that we heard last time. The "leave" campaign will make a statement that will be ridiculed by the "remainers" and vice versa. We will once again be fed with information that we can either take as being correct because a politician says so, or we can do our own research and make an informed choice. Nothing can be based on previous experience, because no country has left before. Likewise, we cannot look at how things were before we joined the Common Market, as the world has changed a lot since then. The only claims to date made by either side that we can prove or disprove 100% are those that were based on what would happen within a short period after the last referendum, as we now know the answer to that.

I suspect the electorate may have more information now than they did last time, and I also suspect thata most of the new information they have will depend on which newspaper they read and which of the politicians they most trust. Whether or not that information is any more accurate than it was last time is open to debate, as trusting the information in a daily rag or believing everything a politician says is probably not the most sensible thing to do.



I've noticed the remain crowd are re hashing old stories like latest about air travel that was used originally , if that happened Spain Greece would colapse as no tourists will go there ! Everything remain says is pure speculation and scare mongering as it's all may do...might do..... could do, not once do they say will do because they don't know and just use tactics to scare Joe public. Now Labour numptys are trying to manipulate a new referendum what's next? :old:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:03 pm

Dave67 wrote:
Jock wrote:I certainly would have, that fat nonce Heath was well aware of the ultimate goal of a federal Euro Superstate.


Why do you feel the need to refer to Edward Heath as a fat nonce?

What does this contribute to your argument?

There is no substantive argument here just smear.

Heath Knew the end game for what was sold to the electorate as a tarrif free trading block, the Federal Superstate you long for was planned by the Bilderberg Group in the 50s and 60s and the fat Nonce was up to his armpits in it. Tell me, why do you think Soros is so keen to spike Brexit, do you think it’s because he cares about his fellow man?
We had a referendum, your side lost, however rather than respecting the democratic mandate, backing our country and fighting for the best deal we can get, treacherous scum backed Junkers, Tusk and Merkel.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:02 pm

Jock wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
Jock wrote:I certainly would have, that fat nonce Heath was well aware of the ultimate goal of a federal Euro Superstate.


Why do you feel the need to refer to Edward Heath as a fat nonce?

What does this contribute to your argument?

There is no substantive argument here just smear.

Heath Knew the end game for what was sold to the electorate as a tarrif free trading block, the Federal Superstate you long for was planned by the Bilderberg Group in the 50s and 60s and the fat Nonce was up to his armpits in it. Tell me, why do you think Soros is so keen to spike Brexit, do you think it’s because he cares about his fellow man?
We had a referendum, your side lost, however rather than respecting the democratic mandate, backing our country and fighting for the best deal we can get, treacherous scum backed Junkers, Tusk and Merkel.



Absolutely correct ! There's now a declassified letter which proves beyond any doubt that Heath deliberately lied on that. I'd be in a position to know the truth regarding your suggestion that he was a " fat nonce" by the way, and I shan't contradict you.

To answer your detractor on your behalf, if Heath was in fact a "fat nonce" whilst pretending otherwise then that is evidence of dishonesty. If the man was living a lie, ( which I happen to know that he was), then it is hard to imagine that we can accept anything he said publicly as entirely truthful can we ? The evidence of a witness can be impeached in court if he can be shown to have been dishonest in other matters so it's perfectly reasonable to mention it.

To Jock I shall say that whilst you assess the situation quite correctly in every way, I'm sure you'll have found by now that over 90% of people are simply too stupid to convince upon matters like this . How else could the State Broadcaster and other Soros bolstered globalist echo chambers convince them that Britain, until quite recently a global superpower with a bigger empire than Rome and the financial /industrial powerhouse which produced the industrial revolution and framed the modern world , is incapable of functioning as an independent nation ?

Unfortunately, as long as those who ultimately drive the Soros agenda also control Politicians, State and most other media , State "education" and Google they can control the information upon which the general peasantry will form opinions and make decisions. In the past I believed that we were a better people than to be hoodwinked like a bunch of Russian serfs, but unfortunately I was wrong and so the answer to all this is not trying to explain logic and common sense to the general public.
That's a frustrating and impossible target at this point.
Mind you, what the answer actually is I don't know . I'm thinking that the best hope for liberty and mind emancipation for the people lies in the likelihood that those who have mesmerised them with fake news, fake science and fake consciousness will eventually cock it all up themselves. The lies and falsehoods are, after all ,now getting to a point where they are so completely ridiculous that perhaps one day even the hard of thinking will cop on and begin to shout " the Emporer isn't wearing any clothes"

Anyway, well said Jock, and be aware that there are probably far more good men in the world who can see what's going on than you think
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:12 pm

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul"

Mark Twain
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)n

Postby rumpo kid » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:09 pm

Dave67 wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:If I posted a picture of the Paris attacks, and argued that we should leave the EU, it would be an extremely weak and immature case to make. I'd feel a complete Melvin.


The pictures

1. Boris Johnson standing in front of a sign - £350 million per week to the NHS
2. Liam Fox - Brexit Deal would be the Easiest Deal in History
3. Graph showing the £1 sterling has devalued by 23% since Brexit Vote.
4. Nigel Farage standing in front of a long queue of Brown faces.
5. David Davis - Business would demand the EU does a deal with the UK
6. Press reports of anti-polish racism proclaiming to be pro Brexit.

All these are either quotes or facts.

I have made no comment in any of them

There is no comment in any of them except from the individuals being quoted. They are a matter of public record.

Please feel free to address any/all of the issues Melvin.



Most schoolchildren know that newspapers and magazines are generally not accepted as sources of information. Nobody suggested you made any comment to the pictures, and as for petty name calling..Ha ha, keep up the good work Dave...the layers are slowly peeling.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:48 am

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:Well you're quite wrong about treason, and trying to distinguish between high treason and low treason has been somewhat pointless since 1351. If you'd like to know , they could technically have beheaded you for that up till 1973, and the other offence for which the death penalty was retained was military arson , ( " burning the Queens ships in her arsenals " I think.
I agree that it's got bugger all to do with the subject but since you were the one who raised it, your comment seems strange.


again I am not "quite wrong".

Wikipedia:
High treason was formerly distinguished from petty treason, a treason committed against a subject of the sovereign, the scope of which was limited by statute to the murder of a legal superior. Petty treason comprised the murder of a master by his servant, of a husband by his wife, or of a bishop. Petty treason ceased to be a distinct offence from murder in 1828, and consequently high treason is today often referred to simply as treason.

I grant you that their usage is somewhat interchangeable today but the capital punishment offences were indeed all High Treason.

One that you missed was Arson in royal dockyards repealed in 1969.


I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Dave67 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:00 pm

SirJimmySchoular wrote:I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:


Having attempted to trawl through the various acts of parliaments and revisions thereof in search of evidence, I also came to the conclusion that you should be paying me to do the research, particularly as the point I was looking to prove was incidental to the main point I was making. At that point Wikipedia became good enough.

Your posts to me have been pretty much been fact based and substantiated, I commend you for this. I read your response to Jock's smears and which were quite the opposite (fact free unsubstantiated opinion) and wondered if they were from the same person.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Bananas » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:11 pm

Considering anyone with half a brain can see that this stupid so called 'brexit' is a complete disaster for Wales, this poll is irrelevant.
Wales as part of a strong Europe please and not a lap dog of Westminster and it's English cronies.

#welshandeuropean
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)n

Postby Dave67 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:11 pm

rumpo kid wrote:Most schoolchildren know that newspapers and magazines are generally not accepted as sources of information. Nobody suggested you made any comment to the pictures, and as for petty name calling..Ha ha, keep up the good work Dave...the layers are slowly peeling.


I note that you have covered none of the issues I invited you to address.

Can I suggest you stop discussing politics with schoolchildren, It will get you some funny looks from the mother's at the school gates.

Can I ask out of interest, If you to not regard the Press as "accepted source of information"....

Where do you get you news from?
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby City Slicker » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:


Having attempted to trawl through the various acts of parliaments and revisions thereof in search of evidence, I also came to the conclusion that you should be paying me to do the research, particularly as the point I was looking to prove was incidental to the main point I was making. At that point Wikipedia became good enough.

Your posts to me have been pretty much been fact based and substantiated, I commend you for this. I read your response to Jock's smears and which were quite the opposite (fact free unsubstantiated opinion) and wondered if they were from the same person.


Go on Dave, don't be stingy give Old Jim a couple of bob; I dare say he needs it. If nothing else he always provides good entertainment (in all his guises) :lol:
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:43 pm

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:


Having attempted to trawl through the various acts of parliaments and revisions thereof in search of evidence, I also came to the conclusion that you should be paying me to do the research, particularly as the point I was looking to prove was incidental to the main point I was making. At that point Wikipedia became good enough.

Your posts to me have been pretty much been fact based and substantiated, I commend you for this. I read your response to Jock's smears and which were quite the opposite (fact free unsubstantiated opinion) and wondered if they were from the same person.



Well yes I suppose there was a bit of opinion there. I also referred to my knowing stuff about Ted Heath which I'm not going to explain publicly , so you're quite entitled to dismiss it.
Leaving the emotive terms out of it, my point was that if Heath was living a lie during his political career then that goes to his honesty or otherwise. Forget the specific nature of the alleged misconduct for a moment - if it's true that he lied and misrepresented himself then it's fair game to be brought up as evidence that we cannot trust his word .
That's redundant anyway though since , as I said, there is now documentary evidence that he knew the aim was a federal superstate which was NOT what he said, and in fact he repeatedly assured both Parliament and the public that it was not so.

Now, that was the only bit which touched upon what you'd said to the other chap, and I hope I've explained my view of the matter now .

The rest of it was by way of chatting in general with Jock and congratulating him upon being perceptive, ( albeit in my opinion you may say). I wasn't trying to prove any point in that portion of my posting , so there was no need for evidence.

Thank you for engaging in the matter in an intelligent way though. I don't much agree with your views on this particular but I do appreciate hearing them. I think you're fighting a losing battle though and since we're venturing more and more into legal stuff, I shall say " Res judicata" !
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby rumpo kid » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:19 pm

I note that you have covered none of the issues I invited you to address.

Can I suggest you stop discussing politics with schoolchildren, It will get you some funny looks from the mother's at the school gates.

Can I ask out of interest, If you to not regard the Press as "accepted source of information"....

Where do you get you news from?[/quote]


Hilarity aside Dave, with regards issues(more like opinions), no-one yet knows. Thats why putting them up maybe hasty, as they only reflect an opinion. Maybe yours even!

One thing I do know, the German BDI has pressed Merkel, as the German economy will take a massive hit if no deal. Cue the predictable last minute hurrah. Bear in mind they are only negotiating the terms of Britain leaving at the moment.

The Press are notoriously bad at reporting factual information. News is only one persons view of a particular event, depending on your view, or sometimes which side you are on, or whose paying.

I Never watch the BBC if that helps. Masters of making the news, not reporting it. And the Polish are ok by me. Maybe if I put a sign up in my car window...
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby City Slicker » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:02 pm

rumpo kid wrote:I note that you have covered none of the issues I invited you to address.

Can I suggest you stop discussing politics with schoolchildren, It will get you some funny looks from the mother's at the school gates.

Can I ask out of interest, If you to not regard the Press as "accepted source of information"....

Where do you get you news from?



Hilarity aside Dave, with regards issues(more like opinions), no-one yet knows. Thats why putting them up maybe hasty, as they only reflect an opinion. Maybe yours even!

One thing I do know, the German BDI has pressed Merkel, as the German economy will take a massive hit if no deal. Cue the predictable last minute hurrah. Bear in mind they are only negotiating the terms of Britain leaving at the moment.

The Press are notoriously bad at reporting factual information. News is only one persons view of a particular event, depending on your view, or sometimes which side you are on, or whose paying.

I Never watch the BBC if that helps. Masters of making the news, not reporting it. And the Polish are ok by me. Maybe if I put a sign up in my car window...[/quote]

Rumpo, have you ever thought what will Brexit do for me? You show every sign that there's an intelligent kid in there somewhere if you just gave it a chance.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:40 am

City Slicker wrote:
Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:


Having attempted to trawl through the various acts of parliaments and revisions thereof in search of evidence, I also came to the conclusion that you should be paying me to do the research, particularly as the point I was looking to prove was incidental to the main point I was making. At that point Wikipedia became good enough.

Your posts to me have been pretty much been fact based and substantiated, I commend you for this. I read your response to Jock's smears and which were quite the opposite (fact free unsubstantiated opinion) and wondered if they were from the same person.


Go on Dave, don't be stingy give Old Jim a couple of bob; I dare say he needs it. If nothing else he always provides good entertainment (in all his guises) :lol:



I aporeciate your generous suggestion but I'm lucky enough to be reasonably comfortable thank you and not at all short of people who'd be prepared to pay me for that sort of thing if I were still prepared to do it. I'm not though because I did it for quite long enough . You seem to think I'm an alter ego of some other chatter whose been here before me, but you're quite wrong you know.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby Jock » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:40 am

Dave67 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:I stand corrected upon the wording of the 1975 referrendum. Although I voted in it, I'd forgotten the actual wording because the thing which the nation was considering was in practical reality whether or not we would join. As you point out though, they'd already signed a treaty which was subject to ratification or otherwise by the vote .

As far as the treason and high treason goes, well that's a bit like " armed robbery" in that the prefix is generally a linguistic thing rather than a specific offence. The offence of "High Treason" does exist theoretically but it's definition is very narrow, requiring the offender to have been doing things like humping Royal princesses. In reality, people were generally convicted of "treachery " if you want to be precise.
I don't recommend it as light reading and I certainly wouldn't advise you to take too much from Wikipedia entries on stuff like this. I note that they blibble on about low and petty treason , which are most archaic concepts, even more so than treason itself which there's not much call for in the courts these days. I could be far more exact on the subject if I took the time to study authorities but I'm not going to do that unless you pay me I'm afraid . :laughing6:


Having attempted to trawl through the various acts of parliaments and revisions thereof in search of evidence, I also came to the conclusion that you should be paying me to do the research, particularly as the point I was looking to prove was incidental to the main point I was making. At that point Wikipedia became good enough.

Your posts to me have been pretty much been fact based and substantiated, I commend you for this. I read your response to Jock's smears and which were quite the opposite (fact free unsubstantiated opinion) and wondered if they were from the same person.

I thought you were a bit of an idiot, suspicions confirmed.
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Re: OT: BREXIT (POLL)

Postby brickyblue » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:03 am

The UK voted leave why are we even talking about another vote its bull shit.
You can vote then vote again that's rubbish we have voted.
We agree a deal or we walk away simple as that.
Britain wants what is best for it and so does the EU what normally happens is we buckle wgi h is why people want out so I say just walk away stuff the EU.We and the commonwealth helped save Europe since that all they want is out money and to dictate things like imagration Nat we voted once don't posts about and make a Mic now.
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