" The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

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" The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Forever Blue » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:42 pm

The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence, the key questions and what the EFL are looking at


By John Doel

Wednesday 21st March 2018

By now, pretty much every Cardiff City fan will be familiar with the basics of what unfolded at Derby County on Sunday.

Long story short, Derby called the game off after heavy snow, Cardiff fans were very unhappy, Neil Warnock was apoplectic and we now have ourselves a rearranged game for April 24.

In between there have have been demands from Bluebirds CEO Ken Choo for Derby to reimburse every Bluebirds supporter who made the trip, while the EFL have asked for observations from both clubs on the matter after initially declaring themselves satisfied with Derby's account.

A series of statements have been issued by various bodies (Derbyshire Police, Derby County, Derby City Council) but, in truth, they have largely served to muddy the waters and fuel conspiracy theories that, to use Neil Warnock's words, this was some sort of "stitch-up" from a Derby County team ravaged by injury and unable to buy a win in recent weeks.

As is often the case, the devil will be in the detail and the EFL's investigation into matters will need to focus on the grey areas that currently exist amid the information in the public domain.

Here's a look at what we've been trying to find out, what responses we've had, the key issues and the questions that remain unanswered.





What do the rules say about the process that should be followed?

The whole rumpus in terms of potential repercussions boils down to what were Derby required to do and did they do it?

The EFL previously told us that the club is required to consult with police and the local Safety Advisory Group (SAG) before a game is called off in these circumstances.

A document must be completed that provides an evidence base for the decision to postpone, which is then sent to the Football League to give its approval. According to the Football League on Monday, this document was completed.

The EFL have so far been unable to provide us with the specifics of what the rules actually say about the full process that is required, although it is accepted that both clubs must endeavour to do all they can to get a game on.
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" The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Forever Blue » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:44 pm

What actually happened on Sunday morning?

The information we have is that a Derby County official or officials decided the game should be called off shortly before 7am on Sunday morning, specifically citing the fact persistent heavy snowfall overnight had made the surrounding areas at Pride Park Stadium unsafe for supporters, staff and officials.

As we know, Cardiff City fans and Bluebirds midfielder Greg Halford have shared pictures of the walkways and roads around the ground that appear to show the area largely snow-free later that morning.

The referee did not make the decision to postpone the game and the Bluebirds were not consulted for their views beforehand.

When Cardiff turned up at Pride Park on Sunday morning, with no travel issues, there were no Derby club officials to greet them.

A later statement from Derby in the wake of Warnock's stinging criticism was then issued in which the club insisted they "fully complied with all the matchday operational regulations surrounding the postponement of the game".

They added: "The decision was fully supported by the independent Safety Advisory Group (SAG), who are responsible for ensuring that the club complies with the terms and conditions of our Safety Certificate."





What is the Safety Advisory Group (SAG)

Our colleagues at the Derby Telegraph have put together this informative guide to the SAG in the area.

The local SAG in Derby features two representatives from Derby City Council and is chaired by Mike Kay, Head of Environmental Protection, Licensing, Housing Standards and Emergency Planning.

The SAG also includes a senior fire officer, a senior ambulance officer, a senior police officer, a police liaison officer and a representative from the Sports Ground Safety Authority inspectorate.

Derby County are not represented on the SAG but the club's head of safety and operations, Nigel Wood, liaises with the group on a regular basis.





So what involvement did the SAG actually have?

Around 7.30am a call was made by a Derby County official to the chair of the local SAG, Mike Kay, who is Head of Environmental Protection, Licensing, Housing Standards and Emergency Planning at Derby City Council.

Now, things have actually got a bit confusing here as a result of somewhat conflicting public statements issued by Derby City Council to WalesOnline on Monday and Tuesday.

The first read: "Derby County Football Club took the decision to postpone the Sky Bet Championship fixture at home to Cardiff City on Sunday due to the weather conditions and the health and safety of people travelling to the ground. This was the club’s decision.

"As Chair of the Safety Advisory Group, the Council representative was subsequently informed.

The second read: “Further to our previous statement on the postponement of the Derby County versus Cardiff City game, the Council’s representatives on the Safety Advisory Group were consulted and fully supportive of the club’s subsequent decision to postpone the fixture for public safety reasons.”

On the face of it, this appears to be a u-turn from Derby City Council, particularly if you focus your attention on the bolded words above. However, it seems clear nuance and subjectivity could to be key in this whole thing.

We understand the chair of the SAG was not in Derby when he received the call at 7.30am and was told by the club they thought the game should be called off. Although he was not on site himself he told the club he had no issue and was supportive of the decision given the information they provided him - hence the second statement. So, the crux of it could be whether it's accepted that this conversation constitutes 'consultation' or not.

What the level of consultation required by the EFL is again unclear as they have so far been unable to provide us with that information.







What about the role of the police?

Derbyshire Police have been pretty consistent here. This was not their decision, they merely helped deliver information in the aftermath of the decision on Sunday morning.

They've told us they did have dialogue with Derby County's safety team and other agencies during the days before and on the morning of the scheduled fixture.

So, it's an established fact the police had no involvement in actually making the decision. The natural next question is did they offer advice to the club that would have led them to make the decision they did? We understand the police did not offer any direct advice to Derby on the Sunday morning suggesting they should call the game off.

The role of the police in this situation is largely to just help share information around things like road closures and general public safety advice.

Perhaps significantly though, a police statement at 8.50am on Sunday morning contained the following words: "We are continuing to advise people to only make necessary journeys following overnight snow, which is continuing in many areas into this morning."






What was the travel situation in Derby on Sunday morning?

It's clear snow was a big issue in the wider Derbyshire area on the weekend, with an Amber weather warning in place between Saturday afternoon and 9am on Sunday morning.

Police stated seven A roads were closed in the north West of the county on Sunday morning, largely around the Buxton and Glossop area. For context, the closest confirmed road closure was approximately 30 miles from Pride Park.

Buses in Derby appear to have been largely running on Sunday morning, however, with Arriva Midlands East stating there were "minor changes" to the normal schedule affecting two services around three or four miles from the ground.





We've already covered Derby's statements and they are publicly adamant they have done nothing wrong and that all proper processes have been followed.

There are two reasons why Cardiff City fans are generally unhappy with their statements. The first is the apparent disparity between pictures like the one Greg Halford tweeted and the club's insistence the game was called off because "the surrounding areas at Pride Park Stadium were unsafe after heavy snowfall."

The other point Cardiff fans will focus their attention on is the declaration the "the decision was fully supported by the independent Safety Advisory Group (SAG)."

Given we know the chair of the SAG who was contacted on Sunday morning was nowhere near Derby at the time and simply gave his support to a decision neither he nor the police had any involvement in making, is that enough? That, of course is for the Football League to decide.

For the record, we have contacted Derby County since their last statement and asked the following five questions.

1. Who exactly did the club speak to on Sunday morning before making the decision and what exactly was the advice given that led to the decision being made?

2. Was official documentation completed and sent to the Football League?

3. Did the club realise the game could be in jeopardy on the Saturday and was this communicated to Cardiff City and their fans?

4. What discussions, if any, were held with other agencies in the days prior to Sunday's postponement. What advice was given?

5. Do you have a response to Cardiff City CEO Ken Choo's statement that "Derby County need to agree to pay Cardiff fans back in full the cost of tickets and travel"?

Derby County responded by saying they have no further comment to make.






What are Cardiff City fans doing now?

Cardiff City Supporters' Club chief Vince Alm is determined to get to the bottom of what happened and is unhappy that travelling fans were given no warning the match could be in jeopardy.

He says the first he knew of the game being called off was when he received a phone call from a South Wales Police representative at 8.06am when coaches carrying Bluebirds fans had already crossed the border into England.

He has sent a 4-page letter to the EFL demanding answers but is yet to receive a response. The dossier contains more than 20 pictures taken by fans in Derby on Sunday morning showing the relatively snow-free conditions in the vicinity of the stadium.





What happens next?

The EFL are currently digesting the "observations" they have requested from both clubs and we go from there.

This isn't likely to be something that drags on though, with a resolution one way or the other likely to be in the coming days.
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Forever Blue » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:50 pm

Latest statement from Derbyshire Police

Tuesday 20th March 2018

Latest statement from Derbyshire Police we’ve had...

“We certainly had dialogue with the football club’s safety team during the days building up to the scheduled fixture, as did various other agencies.
“It was their decision to call off the game. We were made aware shortly before the announcement was made.”
We’ve also got more from Derby City Council who now say they were “fully supportive” of Derby County’s decision.
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby epping blue » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:55 pm

For me this all goes wrong they describe " heavy overnight snowfall " . It was a light covering, the sort that happens in many British towns several days a year, every year. It should not have stopped a sporting event of this magnitude. They did nothing about it as it suited them to have the game called off.
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Steve Zodiak » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:02 pm

So if the nearest road closure was 30 miles from the ground, does that mean Cardiff will be able to call off games if the Heads Of The Valleys road is closed, or if fans in Merthyr cannot get their cars out of their drives. ;)
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:04 pm

One outstanding question if derby were about to call game off surely the 1st people to call was ccfc so stopping them from travelling to ground And await answer from sag? It still sounds like they unilaterally called game off and got retrospective agreement from a person not even in derby! !!!! That cannot be right can it?
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Leytonstoneblue » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 pm

pembroke allan wrote:One outstanding question if derby were about to call game off surely the 1st people to call was ccfc so stopping them from travelling to ground And await answer from sag? It still sounds like they unilaterally called game off and got retrospective agreement from a person not even in derby! !!!! That cannot be right can it?


It would seem form their unilateral decision, that had they waited for Warnock and the team to get there before calling it off, they would have been met with looks of incredulity and given the conditions at the ground, Cardiff would have not supported the decision. So they took the decision before any other involvement. Remember, at the time their first reason for calling it off, was that their staff could not get to the ground. Now, its turned into a health & safety issue. Its quite obvious that Derby have clutched at all the straws available. :lol:
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:39 pm

Leytonstoneblue wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:One outstanding question if derby were about to call game off surely the 1st people to call was ccfc so stopping them from travelling to ground And await answer from sag? It still sounds like they unilaterally called game off and got retrospective agreement from a person not even in derby! !!!! That cannot be right can it?


It would seem form their unilateral decision, that had they waited for Warnock and the team to get there before calling it off, they would have been met with looks of incredulity and given the conditions at the ground, Cardiff would have not supported the decision. So they took the decision before any other involvement. Remember, at the time their first reason for calling it off, was that their staff could not get to the ground. Now, its turned into a health & safety issue. Its quite obvious that Derby have clutched at all the straws available. :lol:




I'm sure efl want to know why ccfc wasn't consulted and can only draw the conclusion derby knew ccfc wouldn't have agreed with their estimation of the conditions? :thumbup:
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby The Cobra » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:53 pm

Our team bus travelled about 20 mins to pride park, so probably about 5 miles away. Probably the same place they stayed last year, which if I remember rightly the villagers near by were shocked to see them turn up and have a kick about on their local pitch, where was this as NW said they had no problems getting there in the coach.
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Bakedalasker » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:09 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:So if the nearest road closure was 30 miles from the ground, does that mean Cardiff will be able to call off games if the Heads Of The Valleys road is closed, or if fans in Merthyr cannot get their cars out of their drives. ;)


Very weak reasoning to use that to call a game off. In fact very desperate.
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Re: " The Derby County v Cardiff City evidence "

Postby Jules » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:44 am

Steve Zodiak wrote:So if the nearest road closure was 30 miles from the ground, does that mean Cardiff will be able to call off games if the Heads Of The Valleys road is closed, or if fans in Merthyr cannot get their cars out of their drives. ;)


Which happens a lot more in Merthyr than in Derby I would suggest :lol:
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