" MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

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" MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby worcester_ccfc » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:43 pm

BBC


Wednesday 28th June 2017


Former Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces 95 charges of manslaughter and five other senior figures will be prosecuted over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

Mr Duckenfield was match commander at the FA Cup semi-final when 96 Liverpool fans were fatally injured in a crush.

Ex-South Yorkshire Police (SYP) Ch Insp Sir Norman Bettison, two officers, a solicitor and a Sheffield Wednesday club secretary also face charges.

The Prime Minister said it would be a day of "mixed emotions" for families.

Last year, new inquests into the disaster at the Liverpool v Nottingham Forest match, held at Sheffield Wednesday's ground, concluded the fans had been unlawfully killed.

The inquests found that Liverpool supporters were not responsible for the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

For legal reasons, Mr Duckenfield cannot be charged over the death of the 96th victim, Tony Bland, as he died four years after the disaster, prosecutors said.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) must apply to the High Court to lift an order imposed after he was prosecuted privately in 1999, which must be removed before he can be charged.

An application will be made to the High Court in a matter of weeks and a senior judge will make a ruling in due course.

The full list of individuals and charges are:

- Mr Duckenfield faces manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 men, women and children

- Sir Norman faces four charges of misconduct in a public office relating to alleged lies he told in the aftermath about the culpability of fans

- Graham Mackrell, former Sheffield Wednesday club secretary, will be accused of breaching Health and Safety and Safety at Sports Ground legislation

- Peter Metcalf, who was a solicitor acting for SYP, is charged with perverting the course of Justice, relating to changes to witness statements

- Former Ch Supt Donald Denton and former Det Ch Insp Alan Foster are accused of perverting the course of justice

The defendants, other than Mr Duckenfield, will appear at Warrington Magistrates' Court on 9 August.

No organisation will face corporate charges and no-one from the ambulance service will be charged, said Sue Hemming, head of special crime and counter-terrorism at the CPS.

She explained that Sheffield Wednesday is now a "different company" and, as it is not a successor organisation, is not criminally liable for any offences that might have been committed in 1989.

The CPS brought charges following referrals from the Operation Resolve investigation into the causes of the disaster and the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) probe.

Assistant Commissioner Rob Beckley, from Operation Resolve, said: "Our inquiry looked at all aspects of the event, including the planning and the preparation for the game, the safety of the stadium and the response by the emergency services."

The IPCC investigated the conduct of both SYP and West Midlands Police (WMP) in the days and weeks afterwards.

Any decision regarding WMP, which was brought in to carry out the original investigation into the conduct of SYP officers, will be made at a later date.

Ms Hemming made the announcement of the intended prosecutions to victims' families at a private meeting in Warrington earlier.

She said: "Following our careful review of the evidence, in accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors, I have decided that there is sufficient evidence to charge six individuals with criminal offences.

"Criminal proceedings have now commenced and the defendants have a right to a fair trial."

Campaigner Trevor Hicks, whose daughters Victoria, 15, and Sarah, 19, died in the disaster, said: "There will be six people facing criminal charges who might not have done if we hadn't been resilient and all stuck together and fought this long fight.

"There are no winners in this, it doesn't bring anybody back.

"What it does do is send a message about accountability, as we keep saying, that nobody but nobody is above the law; be it the police or anybody else."

Chairwoman of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, Margaret Aspinall, whose son James, 18, was killed, said: "This is definitely the start of the end.

"I think everybody needs that, I think we all need peace from Hillsborough but we can never have peace until we've got truth, justice, accountability.

"I think that's the time we'll all have peace."

Barry Devonside, whose son Christopher, 18, was killed in the disaster, said: "Everybody applauded when it was announced that the most senior police officer on that particular day will have charges presented to him."

Evelyn McDonnell Mills, whose brother Peter McDonnell, 21, died, said she was "really happy", but sad that her brother who campaigned for years and died during the new inquests never got to see their conclusion.

Pete Weatherby QC, who represents 22 of the victims' families, said they had "always known that accountability is the most difficult objective".

"They remain keen to see the criminal process properly pursued for those who have been charged and given that, the rights of the defendants should be respected.

"They do however hope that the memories of their loved ones and the integrity of the fans who attended Hillsborough will be respected during the process".

At Prime Minister's Questions, Theresa May said: "I know from working closely with the families when I was home secretary that this will be a day of mixed emotions for them."

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn offered a "tribute to all of those that spent a great deal of time trying to ensure there was justice for those that died at Hillsborough".

Dr Alan Billings, the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner, said he hoped the start of criminal proceedings would "lead to a measure of closure for the family members who have experienced a long and traumatic process".

Sheffield Wednesday said the club had no comment to make.

Mr Duckenfield and Mr Denton's legal representative Ian Lewis, from JMW Solicitors, said: "In light of the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service to commence criminal proceedings against David Duckenfield and Donald Denton, it would be inappropriate for me as their solicitor, or for my clients themselves, to make any comment."

Mr Metcalf declined to comment.
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" MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:53 pm

I just hope those filthy ex-coppers don't riddle out of giving Liverpool fans some very overdue justice. The CPS seem to have got themselves together for this one so surely these bastards are going down for a very long stretch. :clap:
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby CF72Blue » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:37 pm

I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:46 pm

CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.



They don't want their fantastic fans reputation being tarnished ! It's the truth when people say if it wasn't for the thousand or so pool fans there without tickets this disaster would not have happened? Yes copper made a mistake in letting in fans but in hindsight he should have kept gate shut
Then responsibility would have been those fans without tickets if anything happened.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:15 pm

CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.


Things were different back in the 1980's fans of all clubs/international teams would turn up without a ticket, it wasn't an unknown phenomenon. I can remember going to a rugby international at Landsdowne Road in 1986 without a ticket and got in when gates were opened just before kick off.

The thing is these Police Officers were trained professionals who froze on the day and made a string of terrible decisions which directly led to loss of life. They then tried to cover their tracks and deflect the blame onto the dead fans. That could have been any group of football fans during the 1970/80's and frankly their was a culture amongst the Police that football fans were scum and deserved to die.

Their conduct not only lead to the unlawful killing of 96 fans but has also caused untold suffering to the families for nearly 30 years as they fought to get justice for what happened to those poor supporters.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:21 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.



They don't want their fantastic fans reputation being tarnished ! It's the truth when people say if it wasn't for the thousand or so pool fans there without tickets this disaster would not have happened? Yes copper made a mistake in letting in fans but in hindsight he should have kept gate shut
Then responsibility would have been those fans without tickets if anything happened.


So it is unreasonable to expect a high ranking trained professional to make the correct decisions? David Duckenfield was totally incompetent and his idiotic decision making directly led to the deaths of 96 fans (although he will only face trial for 95 deaths).

He then aggravated this by trying to cover his tracks and deflecting the blame onto the Liverpool supporters with untrue stories about fans urinating on dead bodies and stealing wallets from the dying.

The man is scum of the highest order.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby CF72Blue » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:33 pm

Yes the decision making of the cops that day was pathetic, and massive mistakes were made, and their behaviour in the aftermath was appalling too, but what I am saying is surely the supporters who were there without tickets should take some responsibility to. Not once have I heard the people of Liverpool say this.

They never mention Heysel at all, am sure the families of some of the Juventus supporters who died that day love the name Liverpool.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:51 pm

CF72Blue wrote:Yes the decision making of the cops that day was pathetic, and massive mistakes were made, and their behaviour in the aftermath was appalling too, but what I am saying is surely the supporters who were there without tickets should take some responsibility to. Not once have I heard the people of Liverpool say this.

They never mention Heysel at all, am sure the families of some of the Juventus supporters who died that day love the name Liverpool.


Heysel is a different issue where Liverpool supporters were mainly responsible for those deaths because they charged Juventus supporters who ran into a wall which collapsed and crushed 39 dead and injured 600. 14 Liverpool supporters were convicted for involuntary manslaughter and Two Belgian officials were found guilty of criminal negligence. BTW those trails happened within a reasonable time period unlike Hillsborough which has taken nearly 30 years.

I agree the families of the Juventus supporters who died will probably hate the name Liverpool but that is not a good enough excuse to not pursue the negligent Police Officers at Hillsborough.

As I pointed out above 2 Belgian Officials were jailed for failings at the Heysel disaster so it is only right and fair the same thing should happen for Hillsborough
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Gareth (Wilts) » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:01 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.


Things were different back in the 1980's fans of all clubs/international teams would turn up without a ticket, it wasn't an unknown phenomenon. I can remember going to a rugby international at Landsdowne Road in 1986 without a ticket and got in when gates were opened just before kick off.

The thing is these Police Officers were trained professionals who froze on the day and made a string of terrible decisions which directly led to loss of life. They then tried to cover their tracks and deflect the blame onto the dead fans. That could have been any group of football fans during the 1970/80's and frankly their was a culture amongst the Police that football fans were scum and deserved to die.

Their conduct not only lead to the unlawful killing of 96 fans but has also caused untold suffering to the families for nearly 30 years as they fought to get justice for what happened to those poor supporters.

Liverpool fans still turn up pissed and without tickets but nothing is ever their fault. The police made huge mistakes and were criminally negligent but the disaster would not have happened had ticketless fans not turned up in huge numbers
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby CF72Blue » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:05 pm

Of course the same should happen with Hillsborough, and it should not have taken this long, I am not criticising the prosecution of Duckenfield and the rest, that is long overdue, but I think not ALL the blame should lie with them, I say again the many Liverpool supporters who turned up that day without tickets had no right to be there and I believe they should take some responsibility as well.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:08 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.



They don't want their fantastic fans reputation being tarnished ! It's the truth when people say if it wasn't for the thousand or so pool fans there without tickets this disaster would not have happened? Yes copper made a mistake in letting in fans but in hindsight he should have kept gate shut
Then responsibility would have been those fans without tickets if anything happened.


So it is unreasonable to expect a high ranking trained professional to make the correct decisions? David Duckenfield was totally incompetent and his idiotic decision making directly led to the deaths of 96 fans (although he will only face trial for 95 deaths).

He then aggravated this by trying to cover his tracks and deflecting the blame onto the Liverpool supporters with untrue stories about fans urinating on dead bodies and stealing wallets from the dying.

The man is scum of the highest order.


Yes he should have made correct decision and that WAS to keep gates closed! then anything that would happen would be the fault of the thousand or so ticketless pool fans not supposed to be there? Or you saying it was ok for them to be there?
No one is denying police were wrong but by same token the ticketless fans contributed to the disaster aswell.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:10 pm

Gareth (Wilts) wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.


Things were different back in the 1980's fans of all clubs/international teams would turn up without a ticket, it wasn't an unknown phenomenon. I can remember going to a rugby international at Landsdowne Road in 1986 without a ticket and got in when gates were opened just before kick off.

The thing is these Police Officers were trained professionals who froze on the day and made a string of terrible decisions which directly led to loss of life. They then tried to cover their tracks and deflect the blame onto the dead fans. That could have been any group of football fans during the 1970/80's and frankly their was a culture amongst the Police that football fans were scum and deserved to die.

Their conduct not only lead to the unlawful killing of 96 fans but has also caused untold suffering to the families for nearly 30 years as they fought to get justice for what happened to those poor supporters.

Liverpool fans still turn up pissed and without tickets but nothing is ever their fault. The police made huge mistakes and were criminally negligent but the disaster would not have happened had ticketless fans not turned up in huge numbers


Strictly speaking you could argue that the disaster wouldn't have happened if the ticketless Liverpool supporters had not been there. But the role of the Police is in their name, they are there to Police situations like that and prevent dangerous situations getting out of control.

If they fail to do that to an acceptable standard and people get hurt then they are negligent and face the consequences. That is exactly what happened at Hillsborough.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Gareth (Wilts) wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
CF72Blue wrote:I can never understand why the people of Liverpool only blame the coppers, yes they played a part of course they did, but what about the thousands of Liverpool fans without tickets trying to get into the ground, they had no right even being there, if they had not been there would it have happened, I doubt it but noone seems to question that.

They never seem to mention they were involved in another disaster, ie Heysel, which was their fault, not in their eyes it seems, the ground was to old, lets blame that.


Things were different back in the 1980's fans of all clubs/international teams would turn up without a ticket, it wasn't an unknown phenomenon. I can remember going to a rugby international at Landsdowne Road in 1986 without a ticket and got in when gates were opened just before kick off.

The thing is these Police Officers were trained professionals who froze on the day and made a string of terrible decisions which directly led to loss of life. They then tried to cover their tracks and deflect the blame onto the dead fans. That could have been any group of football fans during the 1970/80's and frankly their was a culture amongst the Police that football fans were scum and deserved to die.

Their conduct not only lead to the unlawful killing of 96 fans but has also caused untold suffering to the families for nearly 30 years as they fought to get justice for what happened to those poor supporters.

Liverpool fans still turn up pissed and without tickets but nothing is ever their fault. The police made huge mistakes and were criminally negligent but the disaster would not have happened had ticketless fans not turned up in huge numbers


Strictly speaking you could argue that the disaster wouldn't have happened if the ticketless Liverpool supporters had not been there. But the role of the Police is in their name, they are there to Police situations like that and prevent dangerous situations getting out of control.

If they fail to do that to an acceptable standard and people get hurt then they are negligent and face the consequences. That is exactly what happened at Hillsborough.


Ok accept your argument so tell us what police should or could have done to prevent ticketless fans crowding the gate?
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby CF72Blue » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:18 pm

Strictly speaking you could argue that the disaster wouldn't have happened if the ticketless Liverpool supporters had not been there. But the role of the Police is in their name, they are there to Police situations like that and prevent dangerous situations getting out of control.

If they fail to do that to an acceptable standard and people get hurt then they are negligent and face the consequences. That is exactly what happened at Hillsborough.

Everybody is responsible to some extent for people's safety at big events, we should not have to rely solely on the Police protecting us, we must all play a part in this respect, the Liverpool fans without tickets who tried to get in that day, in my opinion did not give a damn about people's safety until it was to late.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:19 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Yes he should have made correct decision and that WAS to keep gates closed! then anything that would happen would be the fault of the thousand or so ticketless pool fans not supposed to be there? Or you saying it was ok for them to be there?
No one is denying police were wrong but by same token the ticketless fans contributed to the disaster aswell.


I have covered this already. Back in the 1970/80's there was a culture of fans travelling without tickets. Max Boyce had a couple of songs dedicated to this on his albums which came out in the 1970's and Scotland fans travelled to Wembley every 2 years to take it over in games vs. England in numbers which meant that most must have travelled ticketless.

Strictly speaking Liverpool fans shouldn't have travelled but like many other sporting teams fans they did. That's why the Police were there to supervise games and to stop things getting out of control. Even then there was extensive CCTV and if there was a thousand fans without tickets the Police should have had the manpower in place to stop any charging of gates in the first place instead of taking the lazy option of opening them up.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby nubbsy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:24 pm

Did the fans without tickets that stormed the gates get charged too?
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:28 pm

CF72Blue wrote:Strictly speaking you could argue that the disaster wouldn't have happened if the ticketless Liverpool supporters had not been there. But the role of the Police is in their name, they are there to Police situations like that and prevent dangerous situations getting out of control.

If they fail to do that to an acceptable standard and people get hurt then they are negligent and face the consequences. That is exactly what happened at Hillsborough.

Everybody is responsible to some extent for people's safety at big events, we should not have to rely solely on the Police protecting us, we must all play a part in this respect, the Liverpool fans without tickets who tried to get in that day, in my opinion did not give a damn about people's safety until it was to late.


I totally agree but what happens today is a million miles away from the culture of the 1970/80's when fans routinely travelled without tickets.

At the end of the day the Police had a duty of care to the fans in the stadium and to the ticketless fans also. They were lazy and incompetent and that is the primary reason for the deaths.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:31 pm

nubbsy wrote:Did the fans without tickets that stormed the gates get charged too?


They only stormed the gates when they were opened. So it is highly unlikely as the Police would have had to arrest themselves as accessories
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby CF72Blue » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:40 pm

Primary reason yes, sole reason no.
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Re: " MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES OVER HILLSBOROUGH DISASTER "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:09 am

CF72Blue wrote:Primary reason yes, sole reason no.


Of course there were circumstances attached to the tragedy I haven't denied that, but as you concede the primary reason was the incompetence of the Police chief in charge that day.
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