' MP'S Vote for Brexit Overwhelmingly '

Remain lost because after decades of existence and weeks and weeks of debating they couldn't state a case of why it was so important to stay in the EU except the unknown would be scary.

What do they remainers really want from the EU negotiations so desperately ?

Free movement of goods ? they'll give us that in a heartbeat, it will be self defeating not to.
Free movement of capital ? We are the investment bank of Europe,
Free movement of services? we'd never give that without the first two

Free movement of workers ?

I have been reading the Guardian comments section for months and still can;t work out why the EU is so good, all i know is I am a thick racist bigot.

You've left off the reason for its raison d'être Llan; namely to prevent a right wing, unfettered Germany from creating another war in Europe. All the economic arguments are peripheral to the core reason for the project which was political in nature.

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.

I agree with you Steve. If Remain had won and remain had got its act together to agree the priority reforms it wanted (a very big 'if') the process would have been bogged down for years - pushed along only by fear of other right-wing populists winning elections and threatening the union (France, Holland and some others - though not Italy). But that's an academic argument though for the UK now. We aren't going there.

My main point is that there is no option to just leave 'with no strings'. We cannot have a vacuum - we need to agree replacement treaties with the EU (even if outside all the institutions and the single market) as well as with other countries and trade organisations. Wanting to see the broad outline of the government plan and wanting parliamentary scrutiny of the process is not about blocking Brexit or ignoring the 'democratic will of the people'. We will leave - but on what terms and whose interests will be protected (as far as possible)?

I do not want to leave the big print and the small print only in the hands of whichever faction of this government is on top at the moment. The options are endless and there are at least 4 different Tory versions of Brexit around the Cabinet table.

at the moment it really does feel like only lip service is being given to democracy here, its a shame.

I don't see even the hint of anything undemocratic happening. Democracy is all about debating contradictory points of view so as to establish some sort of workable consensus within the rule of law, which is exactly what's happening now. I don't see riots on the streets or violent attacks on our infrastructure and citizenry or emerging coups de etat. Now those actions really would be undemocratic.

Remain lost because after decades of existence and weeks and weeks of debating they couldn't state a case of why it was so important to stay in the EU except the unknown would be scary.

What do they remainers really want from the EU negotiations so desperately ?

Free movement of goods ? they'll give us that in a heartbeat, it will be self defeating not to.
Free movement of capital ? We are the investment bank of Europe,
Free movement of services? we'd never give that without the first two

Free movement of workers ?

I have been reading the Guardian comments section for months and still can;t work out why the EU is so good, all i know is I am a thick racist bigot.

You've left off the reason for its raison d'être Llan; namely to prevent a right wing, unfettered Germany from creating another war in Europe. All the economic arguments are peripheral to the core reason for the project which was political in nature.

Agreed, and it was a success, a lot of that time without us.But, since the introduction of the Euro closer integration is a must. How can you really have a single currency without greater fiscal and political union.
We all know we are a net contributor and peace in Europe was a fair return on the investment, but the failure to address the non Euro countries has caused this issue.
No one took Cameron seriously and its kicked them and us in the ass. The EU needs reform and the Germans are not strong willed enough to rock the boat, they were happy "tutting" at the awkward Brits whilst secretly egging us on.

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.

I agree with you Steve. If Remain had won and remain had got its act together to agree the priority reforms it wanted (a very big 'if') the process would have been bogged down for years - pushed along only by fear of other right-wing populists winning elections and threatening the union (France, Holland and some others - though not Italy). But that's an academic argument though for the UK now. We aren't going there.

My main point is that there is no option to just leave 'with no strings'. We cannot have a vacuum - we need to agree replacement treaties with the EU (even if outside all the institutions and the single market) as well as with other countries and trade organisations. Wanting to see the broad outline of the government plan and wanting parliamentary scrutiny of the process is not about blocking Brexit or ignoring the 'democratic will of the people'. We will leave - but on what terms and whose interests will be protected (as far as possible)?

I do not want to leave the big print and the small print only in the hands of whichever faction of this government is on top at the moment. The options are endless and there are at least 4 different Tory versions of Brexit around the Cabinet table.

at the moment it really does feel like only lip service is being given to democracy here, its a shame.

From the exit side of the argument i don't see any anti democracy at play. I would say yesterdays vote was not reflective o f the UK referendum.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

Would only work if the people who voted actually understood and could make an informed choice.

Remain lost because after decades of existence and weeks and weeks of debating they couldn't state a case of why it was so important to stay in the EU except the unknown would be scary.

What do they remainers really want from the EU negotiations so desperately ?

Free movement of goods ? they'll give us that in a heartbeat, it will be self defeating not to.
Free movement of capital ? We are the investment bank of Europe,
Free movement of services? we'd never give that without the first two

Free movement of workers ?

I have been reading the Guardian comments section for months and still can;t work out why the EU is so good, all i know is I am a thick racist bigot.

You've left off the reason for its raison d'être Llan; namely to prevent a right wing, unfettered Germany from creating another war in Europe. All the economic arguments are peripheral to the core reason for the project which was political in nature.

Agreed, and it was a success, a lot of that time without us.But, since the introduction of the Euro closer integration is a must. How can you really have a single currency without greater fiscal and political union.
We all know we are a net contributor and peace in Europe was a fair return on the investment, but the failure to address the non Euro countries has caused this issue.
No one took Cameron seriously and its kicked them and us in the ass. The EU needs reform and the Germans are not strong willed enough to rock the boat, they were happy "tutting" at the awkward Brits whilst secretly egging us on.

Yes I think a good argument

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

Would only work if the people who voted actually understood and could make an informed choice.

This is exactly the point and why representative democracies are the favoured system in most of the free world. There is nothing pejorative in the suggestion that most people would be unqualified to make informed choices on matters hugely complex in nature. It would not be ridiculous to say that they could possibly be voting for or against something which could result contrary to their beliefs and wishes. The whole reason politicians make decisions for us is that they have access to far more background knowledge and information than us mere mortals can ever hope to have.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

That sounds reasonable enough but where do you draw the line? Some people would like referendums on things like capital punishment, others might like one on restricting uncapped salaries. I would like to see one on free beer

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

That sounds reasonable enough but where do you draw the line? Some people would like referendums on things like capital punishment, others might like one on restricting uncapped salaries. I would like to see one on free beer

Sovereignty issues there needs to be referendums

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

I think on the big issues like the Lisbon Treaty we the people should be asked

That sounds reasonable enough but where do you draw the line? Some people would like referendums on things like capital punishment, others might like one on restricting uncapped salaries. I would like to see one on free beer

Sovereignty issues there needs to be referendums

That's never been the case before. Various kings and queens have reigned sovereign over us because they had the biggest armies and had lots of sex.

Brexit -

Brexit -

Two Welsh Labour MPs, one Welsh Liberal Democrat, and the three Welsh Nationalists. Defied the democratically expressed wishes of the Welsh people. Breathtaking arrogance.

I actually voted to stay in the EU, though not with any great enthusiasm. (Lived in Italy for four years, much easier with an EU passport). The UK, overall, voted to leave, so that's what we should do, without too much delay. Brexit means Brexit!

Uh, that's not what they did at all. Do you even know what the vote was?