Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:44 pm
Jules wrote:pembroke allan wrote:Jules wrote:griff105 wrote:Jules wrote:5 years since moving to West wales I am still yet to meet this AM for Ceredigion but it seems you don't get them knocking your door these days, lazy politicians, wonder how many took the 'abstain' route not to upset their masters?
Ceredigion is Mid Wales (from Aberaeron up) !
If you want to see Mr Wiliams open a local news paper that has a 'worthy' cause article cos he'll be in the picture.
He was very keen on non intervention in Syria. Can't imagine he has many fans in Allepo.
And from Aberaeron down ?
and as for Allepo, well he got his wish there as yet again the UN and the like have been made to look like the toothless laughing stock that they are.
ps. the beeb news always says I'm between news areas so have a choice between mid or west, I read both.
Aberaeron is in County of ceridigion ! Mid Wales is an area covering several counties not sure if you are from Aberaeron you would say your from mid Wales?
I agree Pembroke Allen but I don't get the 'Aberaeron up' bit in Griff106 post ?
Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:49 pm
LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:01 pm
dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:35 pm
Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:55 pm
Steve Zodiak wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:58 pm
dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:59 pm
griff105 wrote:Jules wrote:pembroke allan wrote:Jules wrote:griff105 wrote:Jules wrote:5 years since moving to West wales I am still yet to meet this AM for Ceredigion but it seems you don't get them knocking your door these days, lazy politicians, wonder how many took the 'abstain' route not to upset their masters?
Ceredigion is Mid Wales (from Aberaeron up) !
If you want to see Mr Wiliams open a local news paper that has a 'worthy' cause article cos he'll be in the picture.
He was very keen on non intervention in Syria. Can't imagine he has many fans in Allepo.
And from Aberaeron down ?
and as for Allepo, well he got his wish there as yet again the UN and the like have been made to look like the toothless laughing stock that they are.
ps. the beeb news always says I'm between news areas so have a choice between mid or west, I read both.
Aberaeron is in County of ceridigion ! Mid Wales is an area covering several counties not sure if you are from Aberaeron you would say your from mid Wales?
I agree Pembroke Allen but I don't get the 'Aberaeron up' bit in Griff106 post ?
I wasn't trying to be funny.
I mean North of Aberaeron up as far as the Dovey bridge in Mach is mid Wales.
South of Aberaeron (synod inn) is West Wales or so I've always been led to believe.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:17 pm
dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:08 pm
LostBlue wrote:Steve Zodiak wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.
I'm not talking about those rich I mean the super rich, the ones that tell the government what to do.
It's a different life now as well, being a 30 year old myself and none of my friends will ever be able to afford to buy a house, young people nowadays are more and more untrusting of government, corruption is rife everywhere.
All these things are making the pot boil over already, actual revolution seems like the only answer to many.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:11 pm
Hopski wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
I'm sure I voted "In" back in the day. Anyway I voted out this time and that includes the Common Market and the EU. We are a net importer from the EU and that gives us a strong hand in the coming game of tariff poker.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:14 pm
Steve Zodiak wrote:LostBlue wrote:Steve Zodiak wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.
I'm not talking about those rich I mean the super rich, the ones that tell the government what to do.
It's a different life now as well, being a 30 year old myself and none of my friends will ever be able to afford to buy a house, young people nowadays are more and more untrusting of government, corruption is rife everywhere.
All these things are making the pot boil over already, actual revolution seems like the only answer to many.
Both sides have legitimate points, and you are right, things are different now. Lots of people struggled years back as well, and many people (myself included) got married and had to live with parents (or even worse the in- laws), because either it was'nt easy getting on the housing ladder, or there was a waiting list for council houses. Things that are taken for granted now were often unaffordable then, and a lot of us could'nt even afford a television. We never though street riots were the answer, and staying in the EU is not going to make it any easier for you or your friends to afford a house. My daughter was born just after we joined, and she has never been able to afford her own house, so being in the EU has not exactly helped as far as affordable housing is concerned. Instead, she just gets ripped off by landlords.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:31 pm
LostBlue wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:45 pm
jon1959 wrote:There is a lot of confusion and nonsense in this thread - starting with the OP.
The vote on the resolution in Parliament did 2 things - it expressed support for the Labour demand that the government publish their Brexit plan (when they have one) and it supported the government intention to trigger Article 50 by the end of March 2017.
It was not a vote on triggering Article 50 - that will still need legislation and a further vote in Parliament (unless the Supreme Court agrees that the government can do it without parliament which seems more unlikely as every hour passes).
MPs voted against the resolution for a number of reasons - some because they wanted a white paper from government on the Brexit plan, some because they thought the end of March date would be a waste of the 2 year negotiating time (as nothing will happen until October according to some because of the German elections), others because they didn't want any sort of plan to be published.
There are very few MPs who would vote to block Brexit. The LibDems, Green and maybe the SNP might (or some of them) plus Ken Clarke for the Tories. Almost every Tory and Labour MP will vote to trigger Article 50 and eventually to take the UK out of the EU. However the referendum only asked 'in' or 'out' whatever the advocates of each side claim it meant. There was nothing on the detail of process or on the future deal if any with the EU and what will replace what we have now. A majority of MPs who accept we will leave will also want a say on how we leave and what comes next - as they should. That is not 'remoaning' or blocking the democratic will of the people - that is doing their job in a parliamentary democracy.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:53 pm
dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:58 pm
wez1927 wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market
Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:12 pm
dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind
or maybe you are just paranoid , reading and actually believing the scare mongering that has no foundation. nobody actually knows if we will be better or worse off. nobody. except you
Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:15 pm
wez1927 wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market
Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:24 pm
LostBlue wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind
or maybe you are just paranoid , reading and actually believing the scare mongering that has no foundation. nobody actually knows if we will be better or worse off. nobody. except you
Or maybe I'm the only one who's awake...
Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:51 pm
Steve Zodiak wrote:bluebird-77 wrote:Steve Zodiak wrote:bluebird-77 wrote:Great news glad this is all sorted out and we going to move forward. Get the divorce sorted then we can carry on paying millions to the eu carry on with immigration carry on obeying most of they rules. Be just like before but a much more brutal raping of the country as we have no say in it.
Remind me again what we voted for in June oh sorry you can't because no one knows then the terms and still don't know them now. Surely you like a vote to make sure you get what you voted for and not stitched up like you will be? Absolutely crackers can't believe people are so gullible lol.
Obviously the 17 million of us gullible thickies do not share your superior intelligence.
So tell me Steve what brexit is?? I'll be kind give you 24 hours so you can research it. Lol.
What a whopper.
Nobody knows for sure what will happen when we leave, not even the PM or the rest of Europe. How could they? It's never happened before and yet you appear to be the one person who knows what will happen. I'm still waiting for the emergency budget that would have to happen almost immediately after a "leave vote". Still waiting for our economy to disintegrate, and all the other things that we were told would happen if we voted out.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:05 pm
Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:05 pm
jon1959 wrote:There is a lot of confusion and nonsense in this thread - starting with the OP.
The vote on the resolution in Parliament did 2 things - it expressed support for the Labour demand that the government publish their Brexit plan (when they have one) and it supported the government intention to trigger Article 50 by the end of March 2017.
It was not a vote on triggering Article 50 - that will still need legislation and a further vote in Parliament (unless the Supreme Court agrees that the government can do it without parliament which seems more unlikely as every hour passes).
MPs voted against the resolution for a number of reasons - some because they wanted a white paper from government on the Brexit plan, some because they thought the end of March date would be a waste of the 2 year negotiating time (as nothing will happen until October according to some because of the German elections), others because they didn't want any sort of plan to be published.
There are very few MPs who would vote to block Brexit. The LibDems, Green and maybe the SNP might (or some of them) plus Ken Clarke for the Tories. Almost every Tory and Labour MP will vote to trigger Article 50 and eventually to take the UK out of the EU. However the referendum only asked 'in' or 'out' whatever the advocates of each side claim it meant. There was nothing on the detail of process or on the future deal if any with the EU and what will replace what we have now. A majority of MPs who accept we will leave will also want a say on how we leave and what comes next - as they should. That is not 'remoaning' or blocking the democratic will of the people - that is doing their job in a parliamentary democracy.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:24 pm
City Slicker wrote:wez1927 wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market
Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty
Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:25 pm
Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:33 pm
jon1959 wrote:What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!
There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.
There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.
At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:10 pm
Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:11 pm
jon1959 wrote:What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!
There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.
There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.
At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:11 pm
Steve Zodiak wrote:jon1959 wrote:What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!
There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.
There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.
At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.
Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:18 pm
jon1959 wrote:Steve Zodiak wrote:jon1959 wrote:What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!
There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.
There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.
At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.
Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.
I agree with you Steve. If Remain had won and remain had got its act together to agree the priority reforms it wanted (a very big 'if') the process would have been bogged down for years - pushed along only by fear of other right-wing populists winning elections and threatening the union (France, Holland and some others - though not Italy). But that's an academic argument though for the UK now. We aren't going there.
My main point is that there is no option to just leave 'with no strings'. We cannot have a vacuum - we need to agree replacement treaties with the EU (even if outside all the institutions and the single market) as well as with other countries and trade organisations. Wanting to see the broad outline of the government plan and wanting parliamentary scrutiny of the process is not about blocking Brexit or ignoring the 'democratic will of the people'. We will leave - but on what terms and whose interests will be protected (as far as possible)?
I do not want to leave the big print and the small print only in the hands of whichever faction of this government is on top at the moment. The options are endless and there are at least 4 different Tory versions of Brexit around the Cabinet table.
Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:11 pm
wez1927 wrote:City Slicker wrote:wez1927 wrote:dogfound wrote:LostBlue wrote:Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.
They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.
When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.
most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.
Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market
Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty
Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up
Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:17 pm