' MP'S Vote for Brexit Overwhelmingly '

5 years since moving to West wales I am still yet to meet this AM for Ceredigion but it seems you don't get them knocking your door these days, lazy politicians, wonder how many took the 'abstain' route not to upset their masters?

Ceredigion is Mid Wales (from Aberaeron up) !

If you want to see Mr Wiliams open a local news paper that has a 'worthy' cause article cos he'll be in the picture.
He was very keen on non intervention in Syria. Can't imagine he has many fans in Allepo.

And from Aberaeron down ?

and as for Allepo, well he got his wish there as yet again the UN and the like have been made to look like the toothless laughing stock that they are.

ps. the beeb news always says I'm between news areas so have a choice between mid or west, I read both.

Aberaeron is in County of ceridigion ! Mid Wales is an area covering several counties not sure if you are from Aberaeron you would say your from mid Wales?

I agree Pembroke Allen but I don't get the 'Aberaeron up' bit in Griff106 post ?

I wasn't trying to be funny.
I mean North of Aberaeron up as far as the Dovey bridge in Mach is mid Wales.
South of Aberaeron (synod inn) is West Wales or so I've always been led to believe.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Not sure how many elections I have voted in over the years. Certainly in double figures and sometimes I voted for the winning party, sometimes not. Never crossed my mind to do anything other than have a moan about it when the party I backed lost, we live in a democracy and I accepted it and got on with life. Don't understand this riot nonsense, is this going to be suggested everytime people don't get what they want, even though they are in the minority. I am sure I will back a lose in the future, but I will be in the minority and will acceot the will of the people. (Only time I would have backed a riot was if we had lost the vote on Sunday opening. Imagine that, then the country would really have been in trouble).

There is a lot of confusion and nonsense in this thread - starting with the OP.

The vote on the resolution in Parliament did 2 things - it expressed support for the Labour demand that the government publish their Brexit plan (when they have one) and it supported the government intention to trigger Article 50 by the end of March 2017.

It was not a vote on triggering Article 50 - that will still need legislation and a further vote in Parliament (unless the Supreme Court agrees that the government can do it without parliament which seems more unlikely as every hour passes).

MPs voted against the resolution for a number of reasons - some because they wanted a white paper from government on the Brexit plan, some because they thought the end of March date would be a waste of the 2 year negotiating time (as nothing will happen until October according to some because of the German elections), others because they didn't want any sort of plan to be published.

There are very few MPs who would vote to block Brexit. The LibDems, Green and maybe the SNP might (or some of them) plus Ken Clarke for the Tories. Almost every Tory and Labour MP will vote to trigger Article 50 and eventually to take the UK out of the EU. However the referendum only asked 'in' or 'out' whatever the advocates of each side claim it meant. There was nothing on the detail of process or on the future deal if any with the EU and what will replace what we have now. A majority of MPs who accept we will leave will also want a say on how we leave and what comes next - as they should. That is not 'remoaning' or blocking the democratic will of the people - that is doing their job in a parliamentary democracy.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.

I'm not talking about those rich I mean the super rich, the ones that tell the government what to do.

It's a different life now as well, being a 30 year old myself and none of my friends will ever be able to afford to buy a house, young people nowadays are more and more untrusting of government, corruption is rife everywhere.
All these things are making the pot boil over already, actual revolution seems like the only answer to many.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

I'm sure I voted "In" back in the day. Anyway I voted out this time and that includes the Common Market and the EU. We are a net importer from the EU and that gives us a strong hand in the coming game of tariff poker.

5 years since moving to West wales I am still yet to meet this AM for Ceredigion but it seems you don't get them knocking your door these days, lazy politicians, wonder how many took the 'abstain' route not to upset their masters?

Ceredigion is Mid Wales (from Aberaeron up) !

If you want to see Mr Wiliams open a local news paper that has a 'worthy' cause article cos he'll be in the picture.
He was very keen on non intervention in Syria. Can't imagine he has many fans in Allepo.

And from Aberaeron down ?

and as for Allepo, well he got his wish there as yet again the UN and the like have been made to look like the toothless laughing stock that they are.

ps. the beeb news always says I'm between news areas so have a choice between mid or west, I read both.

Aberaeron is in County of ceridigion ! Mid Wales is an area covering several counties not sure if you are from Aberaeron you would say your from mid Wales?

I agree Pembroke Allen but I don't get the 'Aberaeron up' bit in Griff106 post ?

I wasn't trying to be funny.
I mean North of Aberaeron up as far as the Dovey bridge in Mach is mid Wales.
South of Aberaeron (synod inn) is West Wales or so I've always been led to believe.

no probs nearly in no mans land me

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.

I'm not talking about those rich I mean the super rich, the ones that tell the government what to do.

It's a different life now as well, being a 30 year old myself and none of my friends will ever be able to afford to buy a house, young people nowadays are more and more untrusting of government, corruption is rife everywhere.
All these things are making the pot boil over already, actual revolution seems like the only answer to many.

Both sides have legitimate points, and you are right, things are different now. Lots of people struggled years back as well, and many people (myself included) got married and had to live with parents (or even worse the in- laws), because either it was'nt easy getting on the housing ladder, or there was a waiting list for council houses. Things that are taken for granted now were often unaffordable then, and a lot of us could'nt even afford a television. We never though street riots were the answer, and staying in the EU is not going to make it any easier for you or your friends to afford a house. My daughter was born just after we joined, and she has never been able to afford her own house, so being in the EU has not exactly helped as far as affordable housing is concerned. Instead, she just gets ripped off by landlords.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

I'm sure I voted "In" back in the day. Anyway I voted out this time and that includes the Common Market and the EU. We are a net importer from the EU and that gives us a strong hand in the coming game of tariff poker.

nobody voted for what we have now or anything like no matter how much pple want to twist it.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

It was the rich people who wanted to remain. They are worried what will happen to their investments during the period of uncertainty that is bound to follow. I was not a kid when we were'nt part of this community. I had already left school and was working full time. We had the same moans then about our NHS, our traffic congestion, our salaries not keeping pace with inflation, tax etc., but we made our own decisions and were not tied down with EU red tape. There were no riots on the streets then(Northern Ireland apart), that happened long after we became part of the EU. We joined the Common Market which was all about making trade easier, and I thought it a good thing. Not sure we would have voted to join if we knew what was in store for us long term.

I'm not talking about those rich I mean the super rich, the ones that tell the government what to do.

It's a different life now as well, being a 30 year old myself and none of my friends will ever be able to afford to buy a house, young people nowadays are more and more untrusting of government, corruption is rife everywhere.
All these things are making the pot boil over already, actual revolution seems like the only answer to many.

Both sides have legitimate points, and you are right, things are different now. Lots of people struggled years back as well, and many people (myself included) got married and had to live with parents (or even worse the in- laws), because either it was'nt easy getting on the housing ladder, or there was a waiting list for council houses. Things that are taken for granted now were often unaffordable then, and a lot of us could'nt even afford a television. We never though street riots were the answer, and staying in the EU is not going to make it any easier for you or your friends to afford a house. My daughter was born just after we joined, and she has never been able to afford her own house, so being in the EU has not exactly helped as far as affordable housing is concerned. Instead, she just gets ripped off by landlords.

All fair and valid points, just what I'm saying is I think all that is going to be made worse by leaving, with the wealth gap growing rapidly more than before.

I live to be stood corrected however, each to their own hey

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind

or maybe you are just paranoid , reading and actually believing the scare mongering that has no foundation. nobody actually knows if we will be better or worse off. nobody. except you

There is a lot of confusion and nonsense in this thread - starting with the OP.

The vote on the resolution in Parliament did 2 things - it expressed support for the Labour demand that the government publish their Brexit plan (when they have one) and it supported the government intention to trigger Article 50 by the end of March 2017.

It was not a vote on triggering Article 50 - that will still need legislation and a further vote in Parliament (unless the Supreme Court agrees that the government can do it without parliament which seems more unlikely as every hour passes).

MPs voted against the resolution for a number of reasons - some because they wanted a white paper from government on the Brexit plan, some because they thought the end of March date would be a waste of the 2 year negotiating time (as nothing will happen until October according to some because of the German elections), others because they didn't want any sort of plan to be published.

There are very few MPs who would vote to block Brexit. The LibDems, Green and maybe the SNP might (or some of them) plus Ken Clarke for the Tories. Almost every Tory and Labour MP will vote to trigger Article 50 and eventually to take the UK out of the EU. However the referendum only asked 'in' or 'out' whatever the advocates of each side claim it meant. There was nothing on the detail of process or on the future deal if any with the EU and what will replace what we have now. A majority of MPs who accept we will leave will also want a say on how we leave and what comes next - as they should. That is not 'remoaning' or blocking the democratic will of the people - that is doing their job in a parliamentary democracy.

Very good analysis (as ever) Jon The vote last night didn't materially change anything except force the Government to reveal the flesh on the bones of their BREXIT strategy (assuming they have one, which many of us doubt) although no mention was ever made of a white paper. My guess is that nearer the date, if insufficient detail may be forthcoming, the situation allows for more motions and more amendments on the basis of the Government not keeping to the spirit of the opposition's requirements and the request for a white paper might well follow.

I think we all knew it was highly unlikely a majority would vote against triggering article 50, mainly because it would likely itself trigger a General Election and at the moment the Tories would be favourites to win with an increased majority. However, this is now the point where things will begin to shift into another gear. The fight is now on for Hard v Soft Brexit and an awful lot of water has yet to flow through that bridge. The timespan during which these issues will be debated to death may allow for a realignment of party politics to take place and then all bets are off. One thing for sure is that the Government will have the utmost scrutiny placed upon them.

Yet the defining issue may well be the pending Supreme Court decision. Should the court decide against the Appellant then an Act of Parliament will have to be passed and the court may even decide what form the Act must take. The spectre for the Government is that this issue may get bogged down in a hostile Lords for a long, long time and who knows how much of the mood of the electorate may have dramatically changed in the interim. By the way, studying the reaction of the Judges to the closing remarks of the Government's QC, he's definitely battling against a strong headwind!

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind

or maybe you are just paranoid , reading and actually believing the scare mongering that has no foundation. nobody actually knows if we will be better or worse off. nobody. except you

Or maybe I'm the only one who's awake...

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

In a nutshell basically boys.Lost on here though.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

So your government is a corrupt bunch of self serving, thieving criminals who are told what to do by a banking and business elite and you think democracy exists. I feel sorry for you. So blind

or maybe you are just paranoid , reading and actually believing the scare mongering that has no foundation. nobody actually knows if we will be better or worse off. nobody. except you

Or maybe I'm the only one who's awake...

By the sounds of you every other person was asleep at the time!

Great news glad this is all sorted out and we going to move forward. Get the divorce sorted then we can carry on paying millions to the eu carry on with immigration carry on obeying most of they rules. Be just like before but a much more brutal raping of the country as we have no say in it.

Remind me again what we voted for in June oh sorry you can't because no one knows then the terms and still don't know them now. Surely you like a vote to make sure you get what you voted for and not stitched up like you will be? Absolutely crackers can't believe people are so gullible lol.

Obviously the 17 million of us gullible thickies do not share your superior intelligence.

So tell me Steve what brexit is?? I'll be kind give you 24 hours so you can research it. Lol.
What a whopper.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen when we leave, not even the PM or the rest of Europe. How could they? It's never happened before and yet you appear to be the one person who knows what will happen. I'm still waiting for the emergency budget that would have to happen almost immediately after a "leave vote". Still waiting for our economy to disintegrate, and all the other things that we were told would happen if we voted out.

That's my point exactly Steve nobody knows yet you voted for things that you were promised. If I knew they keep to they word I would have voted leave but I'm not naive enough to have believed they promises. What I want is a chance for the leavers to make sure they get what they wanted. I feel you won't get anything close to what you were spoon fed. And that be a shame that after all the fuss you won't even get what you wanted. Don't you want a chance to reject the new agreement because believe me it be very little different to today.
Let's see what so called democracy gets. Leavers will be stitched up and that is a shame as you all willing to lie down and take it.

The Governments Bexit Strategy

Remain - Everything stays the same until the next crisis, but there will be one.

Leave - Trigger article 50 and wait for the EU's response.

We voted to leave. We needed to have a plan as to how we intended to react to whatever scenario they throw at us. The plain truth us we don't know.

Cameron stopped this happening so May had to buy time, she has done that now, so we must be close to ready.

We are going to leave the institution of the European Union. Both sides are going to lose, its by how much from then on.

We are the second richest economy (third by recent devaluation if in dollars, but that won't last forever). The first is a huge net manufacturing exporter to us, the third is not far behind with food sales. The fourth Italy looks in a bit of trouble. Then there is a gap to Spain with all their youth unemployment and a lot of holiday makers and expats.

We can buy Japanese, Korean or American cars or machine tools. Food is shipped all over, but short term may be more expensive until alternatives are found (Israel, Turkey, Canada, USA)

So it is really up to the EU (but Germany & France) what happens. Not some daft debate in parliament

There is a lot of confusion and nonsense in this thread - starting with the OP.

The vote on the resolution in Parliament did 2 things - it expressed support for the Labour demand that the government publish their Brexit plan (when they have one) and it supported the government intention to trigger Article 50 by the end of March 2017.

It was not a vote on triggering Article 50 - that will still need legislation and a further vote in Parliament (unless the Supreme Court agrees that the government can do it without parliament which seems more unlikely as every hour passes).

MPs voted against the resolution for a number of reasons - some because they wanted a white paper from government on the Brexit plan, some because they thought the end of March date would be a waste of the 2 year negotiating time (as nothing will happen until October according to some because of the German elections), others because they didn't want any sort of plan to be published.

There are very few MPs who would vote to block Brexit. The LibDems, Green and maybe the SNP might (or some of them) plus Ken Clarke for the Tories. Almost every Tory and Labour MP will vote to trigger Article 50 and eventually to take the UK out of the EU. However the referendum only asked 'in' or 'out' whatever the advocates of each side claim it meant. There was nothing on the detail of process or on the future deal if any with the EU and what will replace what we have now. A majority of MPs who accept we will leave will also want a say on how we leave and what comes next - as they should. That is not 'remoaning' or blocking the democratic will of the people - that is doing their job in a parliamentary democracy.

its the advocates of IN or remain that are trying CLAIM it didnt mean this or that .OUT means OUT with no strings attached,exactly the same as if IN had won things would remain exactly the same as before the election,or would there really be pple claining to be of superior intelligence saying those that voted remain meant remain with provisos? me thinks not.

agree about lots of nonsense being talked

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.

Agreed this needs to be sorted and quickly. To govern ourselves, to be out of the single market, to manage our own Borders, to trade with the rest of the world. The EU was a good idea but it's now run by lunatic dictators, with loonatic ideas and we need to get out as soon as possible. The EU is now dead in the water and it's only a matter of time before it's finished.
Political beliefs are shifting across the globe because of these open borders with the Middle East, Watch this space

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

i honestly dont see there would be argueing had we remained {maybe within parliament but not joe public} in would have meant remain as.
what i see are lots of people trying to twist OUT into 57 different varieties of out ISH.
i doubt very much that we will end up with something anyone thought they were voting for.
out should be priority number1 getting everything re negotiated later or as we go .the notion that there is this perfect world scenario where we can cherry pick the best bits and hold on to them is just plain daft or more likely a way to buy time and con the people out of democracy.

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.

I agree with you Steve. If Remain had won and remain had got its act together to agree the priority reforms it wanted (a very big 'if') the process would have been bogged down for years - pushed along only by fear of other right-wing populists winning elections and threatening the union (France, Holland and some others - though not Italy). But that's an academic argument though for the UK now. We aren't going there.

My main point is that there is no option to just leave 'with no strings'. We cannot have a vacuum - we need to agree replacement treaties with the EU (even if outside all the institutions and the single market) as well as with other countries and trade organisations. Wanting to see the broad outline of the government plan and wanting parliamentary scrutiny of the process is not about blocking Brexit or ignoring the 'democratic will of the people'. We will leave - but on what terms and whose interests will be protected (as far as possible)?

I do not want to leave the big print and the small print only in the hands of whichever faction of this government is on top at the moment. The options are endless and there are at least 4 different Tory versions of Brexit around the Cabinet table.

What does 'out with no strings attached' mean? Even if you mean walk away from all the EU institutions and multilateral arrangements (courts, counter-terorism, trade, everything......) and have no formal replacement treaties or deals with the EU then we still have to carve out replacement deals with the WTO and others.... and every treaty, contract or deal will have strings!

There are endless options for the UK when it leaves the EU. Most of them were put up as options by the Leave campaign during the run up to the vote - including the Switzerland, Norway and Canada models. They all discussed future trade and financial relationships (all of which need to be negotiated). There was an implied intention to stop free movement of people - but whether that meant future free movement, or removal of EU citizens now in the UK or both or.... who knows. It wasn't on the ballot paper.

There does seem to be a badly hidden government view (the Theresa May version which is different from Hammond which is different from Fox/Davis which is different from Johnson) that they want a deal with the EU which gives the UK access to the Single Market whilst ending free movement (without defining a future immigration policy) but that is just 'cake and eat it' fantasy.

At the moment most of the noise about what the referendum meant and what the people wanted is on the Brexit side. Of course it is - Brexit won. If Remain had won the post-referendum arguments would have been clearer - but there still would have been arguments about what people really voted for. Most Remainers were arguing for the EU but with reforms - not status quo - but there were as many views of what those reforms should be as there were spokespeople in the campaign.

Thing is Jon it takes the EU 12 months of meetings and they still would'nt be able to agree whether a colon or a semi colon should be inserted after a particular phrase. People have been pushing for reforms for years and got nowhere. The EU will be long disintegrated before any major reforms are forthcoming.

I agree with you Steve. If Remain had won and remain had got its act together to agree the priority reforms it wanted (a very big 'if') the process would have been bogged down for years - pushed along only by fear of other right-wing populists winning elections and threatening the union (France, Holland and some others - though not Italy). But that's an academic argument though for the UK now. We aren't going there.

My main point is that there is no option to just leave 'with no strings'. We cannot have a vacuum - we need to agree replacement treaties with the EU (even if outside all the institutions and the single market) as well as with other countries and trade organisations. Wanting to see the broad outline of the government plan and wanting parliamentary scrutiny of the process is not about blocking Brexit or ignoring the 'democratic will of the people'. We will leave - but on what terms and whose interests will be protected (as far as possible)?

I do not want to leave the big print and the small print only in the hands of whichever faction of this government is on top at the moment. The options are endless and there are at least 4 different Tory versions of Brexit around the Cabinet table.

at the moment it really does feel like only lip service is being given to democracy here, its a shame.

Oh you poor gullible fools. Brexit happened for one reason and one reason only, because a lot of rich people stand to get even richer.

They want to turn us into America, where the gap in wealth is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words, but you were all fed the stories and you all fell for them hook line and sinker.

When you grandkids and their kids can't afford anything other than the basics (rent, bills, food etc) when they can only get part time work and when there are riots on the streets which make the London riots look like a kids tea party, maybe then you will realise what a mistake this is.

most of what we were and are being FED is this riots,rich get richer crap from people that can not stomach democracy.
i believe leave would have won at any point in the last 20 years simply because nobody voted to join in first place.

Agree we never voted to join the eu ,the vote was for the common market

Parliament did......the Maastricht Treaty

Not the British public we've been sleepwalking glad we have woken up

But Parliament is the "British Public personified" within a Representative Democracy Wez. Are you suggesting we should ditch hundreds of years of constitutional history and use referendums to determine our every political issue. Just how competent to you think the general public might be in matters of state and just how much involved do you think ordinary people might want to be?

Remain lost because after decades of existence and weeks and weeks of debating they couldn't state a case of why it was so important to stay in the EU except the unknown would be scary.

What do they remainers really want from the EU negotiations so desperately ?

Free movement of goods ? they'll give us that in a heartbeat, it will be self defeating not to.
Free movement of capital ? We are the investment bank of Europe,
Free movement of services? we'd never give that without the first two

Free movement of workers ?

I have been reading the Guardian comments section for months and still can;t work out why the EU is so good, all i know is I am a thick racist bigot.