' Cardiff City/Swansea City '

" WHO IS WALES BIGGEST CLUB? "

Cardiff are ranked 33rd... one place above Swansea in 34th!


Friday 27th March 2015

By Paul Abbandonato, Chris Wathan

' Cardiff City or Swansea City... Just which is Wales' biggest football club? We present the opposing arguments after new study claims to settle debate '

The matter has come into the public spotlight again because of a League table of the 50 biggest clubs in the English game compiled by a London-based newspaper

It’s a perennial debate. Which is Wales’ biggest club... traditional powerhouses Cardiff City, or new Premier League sensations Swansea City?

Everyone, it seems, has a view. Often simply depending on whether you’re from east or west.

But the matter has come into the public spotlight again because of a League table of the 50 biggest clubs in the English game compiled by a London based national newspaper.

They have based their findings upon a scientific analysis of crowds (this season and historical), global fan base, trophies won, average league finish over more than 100 years, income and international stars produced.

The findings predictably place Manchester United as the biggest of the lot, with Arsenal second, Liverpool third and Chelsea fourth.

As for Wales’ big two, Cardiff are ranked 33rd... one place above Swansea in 34th!

But are the Bluebirds really the bigger club? Here we present the contrasting arguments...

THE CASE FOR CARDIFF (Paul Abbandonato)
Well I guess the cat has been set amongst the pigeons by the Daily Mail’s ‘Football’s 50 biggest clubs list.’

They place Arsenal above Liverpool, Championship duo Wolves and Leeds are positioned ahead of a number of Premier League clubs, whilst Norwich and Charlton are ranked higher than Crystal Palace or QPR.

Football evoking the passions that it does, fans up and down the land will be arguing the cases for and against.

But I bet nowhere will those opinions be stated more forcibly than right here in Wales. Are Cardiff City, placed 33rd, really a bigger club than Swansea City, one position lower in 34th?

Fan base, history and tradition
Yes, is my personal belief. Cat amongst the pigeons time, I guess, but it’s a view I have always held and it’s one I continue to hold, despite the Swans’ incredible fairytale rise as a top 10 Premier League team and Wembley cup winners.

Cardiff are certainly not the best run, or most successful club in Wales right at this moment in time.

But when it comes to determining the size and stature of a football club, fan base is the first port of call (current and more importantly potential) followed by history and tradition.

The Bluebirds, by virtue of being situated in Wales’ capital city and thus having a much broader population base to call upon, have a greater reach to the public at large.

Wales football legend Craig Bellamy, always a champion of the Swans and the splendid work they are doing for the game here, said in his autobiography: “Cardiff City are miles bigger than Swansea.”

I wouldn’t go that far, but bigger they most definitely are. And while you can’t just go by the past, winning an FA Cup, beating Real Madrid and lifting the title will always play a part in this sort of debate. Rightly or wrongly.

When Swansea first marched to the top flight under John Toshack, their own chairman of the time put the Cardiff-Swansea debate into perspective.

Permanency to size and stature
“The football club outgrew the area. If Cardiff had achieved what we managed, they would still be at the top,” Struel once said after the Swans quickly dipped back down the divisions.

In football, teams have ups and downs.. But there is always a permanency to your size and stature.

When Liverpool were winning everything during the 1970s and 1980s, domestically and in Europe, they were still never a bigger club than Manchester United.

The Old Trafford outfit always possessed the greater fan base. Their subsequent success under Sir Alex Ferguson underlined that.

In a funny sort of way, Cardiff and Swansea are the Manchester United and Liverpool of Wales, albeit it, of course, on a much smaller scale.

If Cardiff achieve success again – it seems way off, but it’s bound to happen one day - then an Army of support will come back out of the woodwork to follow them.

We saw that as they rampaged towards the Premier League, regularly sold out their then 27,000 capacity ground and for some matches could have probably doubled, arguably even trebled that figure.

They have more people in their catchment area.

Changing dynamics?
Where the dynamics may be changing is that because the Premier League has become such a global brand, if you were a youngster growing up in Bridgend or Porthcawl, you may be tempted to veer towards Swansea.

That means that unless the Bluebirds get their act together, and fast, they could potentially lose a generation of fans to their arch-rivals.

However, as things stand they are still Wales’ biggest because they are still able to tap into that larger fan base. The Daily Mail study is correct... but when it comes to success, the Swans are miles ahead.

THE CASE FOR SWANSEA (Chris Wathan)
The issue about who is the bigger club is a circular one: you can go round and round without ever getting anywhere.

Because it’s a subjective thing, more often than not unquantifiable – and to me, it’s the football equivalent of my dad’s bigger than your dad.

Not all agree and it’s easy to understand why supporters will take great pride and great umbrage over it, especially when it comes to Cardiff and Swansea.

The release of some research on just who are the biggest clubs in Britain has prompted another look at Wales’ top two on who may or may not be bigger and perhaps this time it’s an easier one to answer.

That’s because the fortunes of the two rivals of late have pushed Swansea onto another level in terms of status as a football club.

The stats used didn’t agree, placing the Bluebirds ahead, seemingly downplaying the significance of the here and now of the global standing of the Premier League.

With four seasons about to become a fifth, the profile of the Swans is incredible and only about to get bigger with the expansion of television coverage in the USA. It’s not one of those buzz phrases associated with promotion, it’s a reality that Swansea’s style and back story is highly marketable. It’s tangible.

TV audiences
The headlines and namechecks made around the world mean that players are established names, and that’s without Ki Sung-Yueng’s South Korean icon status being taken into account, with Swansea the subject of EA Sports’ Fifa campaign at the iconic Gangnam Mall recently.

TV audiences, income, social media following, all fairly new aspects of the modern game and all because of the trappings of the Premier League; right now Swansea have them, Cardiff don’t.

It’s allowed them to get bigger in terms of finances and infrastructure, no longer shuddering at multi-million pound deals because they can afford it, while managing to recoup a £16m profit on £28m Wilfred Bony will help them as they look to complete work to take category one status with their academy that can further propel the club forward.

There are also advanced plans over the purchase and expansion of the Liberty which would allow the waiting-list and the expanded interest in the club from near and far to be illustrated in bigger attendances, something they are hamstrung over at present.

Present and future 'bigger indicators'
Of course, it is dangerous talking about potential – I’m a potential millionaire seeing as I buy a lottery ticket every week – but such developments would push the club beyond the football chasm that presently exists between themselves and rivals.

Still, so much of that has been gained by being in the boom-land of the Premier League and it is easy to talk of history when mentioning this argument. The thing is, history has to start somewhere and the present and the future are bigger indicators of where a club stands.

Right now, Swansea stand on top in Wales – but they will be aware that football never stands still.

Mason, Support wise and potential, Cardiff City without a doubt
But at present moment as to where both Clubs are, You have to be totally honest Swansea City.

From FB

Gareth Hughes
Only one team in Wales and that's the mighty bluebirds. Swansea are punching way above their weight and in a couple of years time they'll be relegated and back to 12000 crowds.



Neil Wixon
I am not interested in Swansea town just a little town in Cardiff

From FB

Gareth Hughes
Only one team in Wales and that's the mighty bluebirds. Swansea are punching way above their weight and in a couple of years time they'll be relegated and back to 12000 crowds.



Neil Wixon
I am not interested in Swansea town just a little town in Cardiff

I have to disagree with this kind of mindset. They clearly have a structure in place that allows them to stay where they are and I also see it as a big threat to Cardiff in losing areas of traditional support. A dip in fortune couldn't come at a worse time in my opinion.

Cardiff have always been the bigger club, without doubt it could be under threat with the swans continued success and attracting new fans. But it goes without saying that if and it is an if we had the same success as swansea of late the ground which is currently to big would not be big enough.

I use to like the fact we had support right on the jacks door step in places like Port talbot, but lately ive seen and heard of quite a few jacks in Caerphilly, cant get much nearer to Cardiff than that.

wathan is basing all his comments on fact swansea are in premier so they must be bigger!! its a bit like their fans? club history only started when they reached premier and won micky mouse cup!! success is subjective so staying in premier 4 seasons and winning micky mouse cup, is that greater success than what city have done than in their 100yr or so of history??
maybe in years to come it may be more clear cut but at moment city are bigger club but not the best!

This old chestnut!

What is remarkable about the findings is how similar in size the two clubs are adjudged to be. Maybe it is this that causes such fierce debate whenever the issue arises.

I've always thought that Cardiff is way bigger than Swansea on the basis of catchment and the infrastructure of the club, together with the developments in the City itself. No doubt, if there is another viable push for the top flight again, the stadium will fill in no time. However, the issue of timing is crucial here because of the huge increase in money for being in the PL. This is money the cost of the league can only dream of.

The truth is that the longer you are in the PL, the longer you are likely to remain in the PL. Financial Fair Play has made it easier if anything for smaller clubs to compete and I have no doubt that Swansea are growing year on year. In fact, if this exercise had taken place a few years ago, Cardiff would probably have been further ahead.

I have said all along that it is better to consolidate in the Championship and develop a seriously competitive squad before attacking the PL again. If that happens within 3 years, things could change. Anyone e suggesting Swansea will be relegated any time soon are simply dreaming.

Annis, you're right: it is more important to concentrate on the home side, not try to outdo the neighbours.

From FB

Gareth Hughes
Only one team in Wales and that's the mighty bluebirds. Swansea are punching way above their weight and in a couple of years time they'll be relegated and back to 12000 crowds.



Neil Wixon
I am not interested in Swansea town just a little town in Cardiff

Annis interesting comments by Gareth and the funny thing about his comments actual bodies in the stadium for us recently has been around 12-14.000. And next season we will be lucky to get 10.000.
But I agree with you completely and to add the Jacks have the best run Club, and from next season there attendances will dwarf ours. And there fan base will grow as the kids growing up used to side with us but that will also soon change.
Vinny Tan is destroying our club with his antics his appointments of managers. The reasons why not many are renewing is bloody obvious.

This old chestnut!

What is remarkable about the findings is how similar in size the two clubs are adjudged to be. Maybe it is this that causes such fierce debate whenever the issue arises.

I've always thought that Cardiff is way bigger than Swansea on the basis of catchment and the infrastructure of the club, together with the developments in the City itself. No doubt, if there is another viable push for the top flight again, the stadium will fill in no time. However, the issue of timing is crucial here because of the huge increase in money for being in the PL. This is money the cost of the league can only dream of.

The truth is that the longer you are in the PL, the longer you are likely to remain in the PL. Financial Fair Play has made it easier if anything for smaller clubs to compete and I have no doubt that Swansea are growing year on year. In fact, if this exercise had taken place a few years ago, Cardiff would probably have been further ahead.

I have said all along that it is better to consolidate in the Championship and develop a seriously competitive squad before attacking the PL again. If that happens within 3 years, things could change. Anyone e suggesting Swansea will be relegated any time soon are simply dreaming.

Annis, you're right: it is more important to concentrate on the home side, not try to outdo the neighbours.

did you know that swansea have only won one league match by more than one goal??? so a very fine line between success and failure

I use to like the fact we had support right on the jacks door step in places like Port talbot, but lately ive seen and heard of quite a few jacks in Caerphilly, cant get much nearer to Cardiff than that.

Jacks in Caerphilly? That is terrible. Saddens me to see how Cardiff has got to the stage we are in right now. Hopefully things will change. Too painful being a Cardiff City fan.

This old chestnut!

What is remarkable about the findings is how similar in size the two clubs are adjudged to be. Maybe it is this that causes such fierce debate whenever the issue arises.

I've always thought that Cardiff is way bigger than Swansea on the basis of catchment and the infrastructure of the club, together with the developments in the City itself. No doubt, if there is another viable push for the top flight again, the stadium will fill in no time. However, the issue of timing is crucial here because of the huge increase in money for being in the PL. This is money the cost of the league can only dream of.

The truth is that the longer you are in the PL, the longer you are likely to remain in the PL. Financial Fair Play has made it easier if anything for smaller clubs to compete and I have no doubt that Swansea are growing year on year. In fact, if this exercise had taken place a few years ago, Cardiff would probably have been further ahead.

I have said all along that it is better to consolidate in the Championship and develop a seriously competitive squad before attacking the PL again. If that happens within 3 years, things could change. Anyone e suggesting Swansea will be relegated any time soon are simply dreaming.

Annis, you're right: it is more important to concentrate on the home side, not try to outdo the neighbours.

did you know that swansea have only won one league match by more than one goal??? so a very fine line between success and failure

I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me at all. They have struggled in front of goal at times. Their saving grace is in defence. If you score only one goal but keep a clean sheet, job done. In fact, that was the undoing last season: letting too many in.

The margins are tiny at that level as you said, but over a season, good and bad luck usually evens out. I think that's what's happened to a degree this season after the relegation. Some of the results have started to show positivity and that can be infectious.

Swansea City are where we should be. They are a better club and will remain so while Tan is running our show.

How ever we have the potential to be a big club. Twice I have seen Cardiff play in front of 50,000 in our own back yard. It is highly unlikely Swansea would achieve that even if they do go further up the status table and do have a ground to accommodate.

This old chestnut!

What is remarkable about the findings is how similar in size the two clubs are adjudged to be. Maybe it is this that causes such fierce debate whenever the issue arises.

I've always thought that Cardiff is way bigger than Swansea on the basis of catchment and the infrastructure of the club, together with the developments in the City itself. No doubt, if there is another viable push for the top flight again, the stadium will fill in no time. However, the issue of timing is crucial here because of the huge increase in money for being in the PL. This is money the cost of the league can only dream of.

The truth is that the longer you are in the PL, the longer you are likely to remain in the PL. Financial Fair Play has made it easier if anything for smaller clubs to compete and I have no doubt that Swansea are growing year on year. In fact, if this exercise had taken place a few years ago, Cardiff would probably have been further ahead.

I have said all along that it is better to consolidate in the Championship and develop a seriously competitive squad before attacking the PL again. If that happens within 3 years, things could change. Anyone e suggesting Swansea will be relegated any time soon are simply dreaming.

Annis, you're right: it is more important to concentrate on the home side, not try to outdo the neighbours.

did you know that swansea have only won one league match by more than one goal??? so a very fine line between success and failure

I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me at all. They have struggled in front of goal at times. Their saving grace is in defence. If you score only one goal but keep a clean sheet, job done. In fact, that was the undoing last season: letting too many in.

The margins are tiny at that level as you said, but over a season, good and bad luck usually evens out. I think that's what's happened to a degree this season after the relegation. Some of the results have started to show positivity and that can be infectious.

Yes results have improved and gives hope for next season as long as transfer market is used well in summer?

Right now, Swansea stand on top, except in the list of the 50 biggest clubs, where they're in 34th, and below Cardiff.

Also, they paid £15M for Bony, inclusive of Agents fees - this guy is talking the usual jackanory - its not Paul is it?

There have always been Swansea folks living in and around Cardiff, plenty move here for work etc...now the club is successful you notice them more, they probably never used to go 10 years ago. Places like Caerphilly they will be more abundant as property is far more affordable. I very doubt they were born there like so many of ours in Neath and PT.

Cardiff City are without doubt the biggest club
At the moment we are behind the jacks on current performance but if you go back over the years it proves it's the bluebirds
When we were in the old first division our average crowds were 55,000 every home match
We were also one of the richest clubs in the country
We made a world record bid of £75,000 for John Charles
Leeds however turned us down and he went to Juventus for £65,000
As far as I'm concerned no contest bluebirds the biggest by a mile

Size and loyalty of the fan base is the true measurement of the size of the club.

The premier league means nothing. The inflated money goes to the players & agents. How much money have the Jacks made in the last 4 years ? They are a superbly managed club, in touch with their fan base and locality, but i don't think they have made that much.

Sheff Utd are bigger than Swansea (And us before the Jacks go mental)

We are bigger than the Jacks purely because they can't expand their fan base due to their stadium. A sustained period in the premier league with 30K fans would convert a lot of those original premier league tourists into genuine jacks.

The adversarial attitude of the club against the fans will come to a head this summer and they learn the ultimate marketing truth the "customer" is always right

Fair and balanced views to be honest... I think the vast difference at the moment rests with the boardrooms, we have been extremely lucky to have people who care running the Swans whereas you have had years of owners in it for themselves.

Just an opinion, but I think that's where the difference lies.

Fair and balanced views to be honest... I think the vast difference at the moment rests with the boardrooms, we have been extremely lucky to have people who care running the Swans whereas you have had years of owners in it for themselves.

Just an opinion, but I think that's where the difference lies.

Fair Comment

I know your owners put the fans first.

There have always been Swansea folks living in and around Cardiff, plenty move here for work etc...now the club is successful you notice them more, they probably never used to go 10 years ago. Places like Caerphilly they will be more abundant as property is far more affordable. I very doubt they were born there like so many of ours in Neath and PT.

Funny don't see many up this way, lots osprey shirts about, i think swans fans hide in closet!

From FB

Gareth Hughes
Only one team in Wales and that's the mighty bluebirds. Swansea are punching way above their weight and in a couple of years time they'll be relegated and back to 12000 crowds.



Neil Wixon
I am not interested in Swansea town just a little town in Cardiff

Relegated hahaha yeah and you can keep saying that every year , It`s what they been saying for last four so why not make it another 4 .
Love seeing these bitter idiots who cannot think sensibly due to their inherent hatred of Swansea . Simple fact is we are a million miles ahead in every possible regard and all this TV money will just help cement us as a established premier league outfit.
I dont worry in the slightest about relegation , i,m looking at being a top 6 side every season ,Which is to be expected considering how good we are .
Fear not we will carry the flag for wales and make people worldwide talk about how great we are . You on the other hand can keep getting the JOKE club headlines . a calamity of a club owned by someone who couldn't run a tap .

From FB

Gareth Hughes
Only one team in Wales and that's the mighty bluebirds. Swansea are punching way above their weight and in a couple of years time they'll be relegated and back to 12000 crowds.



Neil Wixon
I am not interested in Swansea town just a little town in Cardiff

Relegated hahaha yeah and you can keep saying that every year , It`s what they been saying for last four so why not make it another 4 .
Love seeing these bitter idiots who cannot think sensibly due to their inherent hatred of Swansea . Simple fact is we are a million miles ahead in every possible regard and all this TV money will just help cement us as a established premier league outfit.
I dont worry in the slightest about relegation , i,m looking at being a top 6 side every season ,Which is to be expected considering how good we are .
Fear not we will carry the flag for wales and make people worldwide talk about how great we are . You on the other hand can keep getting the JOKE club headlines . a calamity of a club owned by someone who couldn't run a tap .

Hahaha what a bitter man you are. It must have been those 20 odd years when you were down there that has twisted your brain.