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Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:14 am

Tailgunner wrote:Sadly
Tan Dalman and Choo need to make a trip to West Wales
see how a football club is supposed to be run :cry:




Mmmm bet every club in country went looking at their model? If that easy and so great lots would be doing it but how many are? Suited them and that's OK but doesn't suit everyone :old:

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:16 am

not disputing that. its because team spend far beyond their means.

the money we spend, mostly on absolute dross was shocking last season. And its still going on now. A team like Burnely will bank money (though im not sure of their situation before promotion) Norwich West Brom and Palace are all examples of teams who have done things the right way as well as Swansea. Promotion/relegation doesnt actually matter. When you are there, you should budget for finishing last and spend accordingly.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:21 am

paulh_85 wrote:not disputing that. its because team spend far beyond their means.

the money we spend, mostly on absolute dross was shocking last season. And its still going on now. A team like Burnely will meansgo back money (though im not sure of their situation before promotion) Norwich West Brom and Palace are all examples of teams who have done things the right way as well as Swansea. Promotion/relegation doesnt actually matter. When you are there, you should budget for finishing last and spend accordingly.



Yes lots clubs are now seeing that best way is spend as little as possible when there, and hope they can keep players? But as you know that doesn't happen simply because clauses in contracts regarding relegation means champ levels of pay, so best players leave and then they struggle as champ is very difficult to get out off! :thumbup:

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:40 am

Leytonstoneblue wrote:There are two area's that need further explanation, why do we have a debt of £7.4 million to Torman Financial Inc at a rate of 8%?? I thought that all historical debts had been settled or if it's a new one, as I have not heard of this debt before, then why on earth if we have a Billionaire owner are we borrowing any money at 8%??

Also our administrative costs have rose from £7.4 million to £15.8 million in 2012-2013, which at the time was unacceptable seeing as there were no extra staff etc, now they have now increased to £39.7 million :o :o
What the hell do these administrative costs cover? and why do they keep doubling :roll:



The term administration expenses is a bit misleading. It basically includes everything that doesn`t directly relate to income generation.

It therefore includes , for the 2014 accounts , about £21m of write down of player values and £6m of write down of the value of the Ninian Stand extension. In 2013 these write-offs were far lower at £11m.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:03 am

bspark wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:
wez1927 wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:Wez, your words, So it looks like I was not scaremongering, but nearer to the truth,than anyone else.

Do you think its better now tho this season with the players sales and cost cutting or do you think it's gone up ? As there us now 9 months since the end date of the accounts ?


Wez, I def think our debt should now be going down, it surely cant be rising after our cost cutting this season.


So if in our promotion season we made a loss of £30m with a wage bill of £27m and a loss of £12 on transfers then this season with a wage bill of hopefully less than £37m, a profit of £12m from transfers and £20m of parachute money we should make a profit of about £4m. So debt might come down by £4m in next accounts.



In our promotion season we made a loss of £30m with a wage bill of £33m and a loss of £345k on transfers.

Not sure where your figure of a £12m profit on transfers this season comes from , but the income should certainly be about £20m more than that season`s £17m because of the parachute money.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:06 am

Firstly, its hardly a shock yet this board is full of mock outrage. Come on fellas, you knew it'd be this bad. Secondly, this may now see some of our fan base get bloody real when it comes to Slade. A manager on a lower wage packet with a job to keep us in this league whilst cutting the wage bill massively.

Anyone not prepared for a long and strenuous battle watching Cardiff struggle to balance the books off the pitch whilst fighting for survival on it may as well walk now.

If you think Slade is going to be replaced when the financial books look like that then you're deluded. Slade is here for the long haul during the cutting back process so get behind your manager and team no matter what.

Stop whinging now. 99% of us wanted Tans investment, if not more. A minority walked on day one. Only people who can moan now are those who walked on day one and didn't want any of Tans money in the first place.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:12 am

Forever Blue wrote:
wez1927 wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:Wez, your words, So it looks like I was not scaremongering, but nearer to the truth,than anyone else.

Do you think its better now tho this season with the players sales and cost cutting or do you think it's gone up ? As there us now 9 months since the end date of the accounts ?


Wez, I def think our debt should now be going down, it surely cant be rising after our cost cutting this season.



Annis don't forget this amount is up to may 2014? So hopefully when next accounts come in it should be better as cost cutting takes effect, but i won't hold my breath! Tbh all this is just big business moving money around to avoid certain penalties ect ect, after all if this debt is so high next season ffp will hit us hard, tan knows this do live in hope that at end day things will be sorted tan be gone and we all live happily ever after? :thumbup:

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:17 am

pembroke allan wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:
wez1927 wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:Wez, your words, So it looks like I was not scaremongering, but nearer to the truth,than anyone else.

Do you think its better now tho this season with the players sales and cost cutting or do you think it's gone up ? As there us now 9 months since the end date of the accounts ?


Wez, I def think our debt should now be going down, it surely cant be rising after our cost cutting this season.



Annis don't forget this amount is up to may 2014? So hopefully when next accounts come in it should be better as cost cutting takes effect, but i won't hold my breath! Tbh all this is just big business moving money around to avoid certain penalties ect ect, after all if this debt is so high next season ffp will hit us hard, tan knows this do live in hope that at end day things will be sorted tan be gone and we all live happily ever after? :thumbup:
the debt doesn't matter with fair play as its the season opperating loses no more than 8 million.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:26 am

Forever Blue wrote:
wez1927 wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:Wez, your words, So it looks like I was not scaremongering, but nearer to the truth,than anyone else.

Do you think its better now tho this season with the players sales and cost cutting or do you think it's gone up ? As there us now 9 months since the end date of the accounts ?


Wez, I def think our debt should now be going down, it surely cant be rising after our cost cutting this season.



Annis

We have approx. £40m less in t.v. money coming in compared to last season , so the club has to save £52m in costs to cover that plus the £12m loss made last year just to break even.It is not impossible to do this , but very difficult.

Some savings towards this could be

1) cutting back wage costs

The club has suggested it will save £12m a year in wage costs from the players it has released , but this only took place recently , so probably only half that benefit for this season - saving £6m

2) selling off players last Summer at sensible prices

The likes of Medel , Caulker , Mutch and Campbell were all sold for fees likely to have generated a profit. In total , they were probably in the books at a combined value of approx.£15m. If we got £20m for them all (may have been more) then that would be a profit of £5m compared to a loss of £5m on player sales in 2014 -saving £10m.

3) player amortisation and impairment

the playing squad value is written off each year over the contract period (so a £3m player on a 3 year contract is a cost in the books of £1m a year). By disposing of the above players in the Summer of 2014 and bringing in cheaper replacements the write off this season will be less , maybe half as much - saving £7m

impairment is where the club values its fixed assets (players and stadium) at the year end and decides if the values in the books are too high . In 2014 , this caused a further write down cost of £12m which should not be repeated this year - saving £12m

The total saving from the above would be £(6+10+7+12)m , a total of £35m , which is great but still a long way short of the £52m target.

Keith

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:38 pm

Apart from Annis and presumably Mr. Tan our accounts seem to have come as a bit of a shock to even the most sceptical! But as long as we are owned by a Billionaire, we have no financial worries! because, In simple terms, Mr. Tan is responsible for and can afford to carry those debts, of course these huge amounts effectively mean that, at present, we have closed the door to any prospective new owners.

So what will Mr. Tan do next?

1) Walk Away Now.
Apart from the personal disgrace and the wrath of the football world (massive, even in Malaysia), when the dust settles he will probably be £170,000,000 (with all the 0's it looks even more massive) worse off. In reality, this is not an option. The stark truth is, any failure by Mr. Tan to carry the debt will result in the end of CCFC as we know it!

2) Sell Now.
Possibly a preferred option, but with these accounts and no evidence of improvement only a lunatic would pay more than a "bargain basement" price and there aren't many mega-rich lunatics around!

3) Sell Next Year.
After all the spending cuts, reorganisation and steadying the ship with a Manager that can keep the club out of the 3rd tier, sell for an albeit, much reduced price, leave with some dignity having put your "losses" against your Tax bill. Keeping Russell Slade next season would indicate that this could be the chosen option.

4) Have another go for the PL.
Is there a cunning plan taking shape here? have the events of the last few months come from a "new" enlightened Mr. Tan, a Mr. Tan who has at last "woken up & smelt the Coffee" and realised that if you don't have the fans on you side you don't have a football club. Making his first visit this weekend he will gauge the fan's reaction, is there a chance of redemption?

We have the set-up, the ship is steadied, we have the basis of a really good squad, we have a quality Coach, now bring in a PL quality Manager, because, unfortunately, if this is Mr. Tan's chosen option, there is no way Russell Slade can take us into the PL, add a few intelligent signings and who knows?

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:16 pm

It surprises me that a small number of people on this forum refuse to accept that we are in serious financial debt, and refuse to take a step back and look at things neutrally rather than through blue tinted spectacles. Mostly the same few who were adamant that firstly we would get automatic promotion, and even just a few weeks ago were still confident we would be in the play offs are now arguing that we are in a better position than we actually are. While we would all like to see everything in a positive light, sometimes you have to accept the reality of what is actually happening at the club.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:41 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Tailgunner wrote:Sadly
Tan Dalman and Choo need to make a trip to West Wales
see how a football club is supposed to be run :cry:




Mmmm bet every club in country went looking at their model? If that easy and so great lots would be doing it but how many are? Suited them and that's OK but doesn't suit everyone :old:



After the Tony Petty fiasco (Jacks nearly going out of business) obviously they said never again
house in order keep the book tight
Then Us after the Sam Hammam fiasco sadly we have a benefactor who can`t run a football club.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:47 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:It surprises me that a small number of people on this forum refuse to accept that we are in serious financial debt, and refuse to take a step back and look at things neutrally rather than through blue tinted spectacles. Mostly the same few who were adamant that firstly we would get automatic promotion, and even just a few weeks ago were still confident we would be in the play offs are now arguing that we are in a better position than we actually are. While we would all like to see everything in a positive light, sometimes you have to accept the reality of what is actually happening at the club.



Its a matter of opinion and how you look at it? Yes in debt massively but before tan if you take away sams money owed we only had small debt but couldn't afford pay 250k tax bill had 2 extensions to pay it ? Hence tans involvement, Now yes debt hugely gone up but owed to one man only and that's far better than many other creditors! Basically its upto tan what happens and as above post states he is not going to pull plug unless wants to lose mega millions? So whilst debt is huge until such time tan decides what he wants to do we are never going to know full debt, as only got look at confusing amounts stated. I prefer being in situation now rather pre tan! As then we were dead and buried unless of course some rich person was siting in court waiting until zero hour to pay tax man? :shock: :o

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:51 pm

Steve Zodiak wrote:It surprises me that a small number of people on this forum refuse to accept that we are in serious financial debt, and refuse to take a step back and look at things neutrally rather than through blue tinted spectacles. Mostly the same few who were adamant that firstly we would get automatic promotion, and even just a few weeks ago were still confident we would be in the play offs are now arguing that we are in a better position than we actually are. While we would all like to see everything in a positive light, sometimes you have to accept the reality of what is actually happening at the club.


Steve, We are in serious debt and a club in crisis, all sadly true facts.
Thousands upon thousands of fans are voting with their feet as well and that in itself says a lot.

I have been pointing this out for the last 2 years.

I would love to give positive news, but there is none.

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:54 pm

Tailgunner wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Tailgunner wrote:Sadly
Tan Dalman and Choo need to make a trip to West Wales
see how a football club is supposed to be run :cry:




Mmmm bet every club in country went looking at their model? If that easy and so great lots would be doing it but how many are? Suited them and that's OK but doesn't suit everyone :old:



After the Tony Petty fiasco (Jacks nearly going out of business) obviously they said never again
house in order keep the book tight
Then Us after the Sam Hammam fiasco sadly we have a benefactor who can`t run a football club.


they had no choice as no one to fund them, yes unfortunately tan came along but unfortunately fans don't have say in who buys club as they say rest is history! We were in worse state than swans when they went in to admin so maybe we should have said no to tan and took chances with tax man who is so kind and understanding towards people especially football clubs! :laughing6:

Re: Cardiff accounts show £130Mill is owed/Debt reaches £174

Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:02 am

What ever anyone tries to make of these accounts,the fact remains they are shocking.