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Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:08 pm

2blue2handle wrote:Not sure on the timing of this from the trust tbh, lets say Tan did the debt to equity tomorrow would the trust then distance themselves from any protests? If not then surely it makes them look a bit silly.





That's a fair comment, although the Trust have little credibility in my eyes anyway ;)

I am not one for 'mass protests' as I have seen them all before and (in my vast experience in such matters) they do little except feed a media frenzy that will milk such events and twist them to their own ends

I will always maintain that the 'best' course of action is through meaningful dialogue, but the problem we have at Cardiff is that neither side has any real interest in the others point of view and until there is a thaw in some pretty entrenched views from all parties we will just go around in ever decreasing circles. We now desperately need something or someone that just MIGHT be able to influence proceedings

Some will see that as naive, but it isn't. What it certainly is, though, is a desire (on my part at least) to put an end to all the negativity surrounding the club I love and will continue to love well after Vincent Tan and his temporary ownership have left the building :thumbup:

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:33 pm

jezzy666 wrote:can anyone correct me if im wrogn but if tan converts debt to equity right now its a very bad thing and will leave us at risk of FFP breaches?

currently our outgoings are more than whats coming in and if it wasnt for tans montly input we would be breaching FFP. so by tan doing this and putting money it it classes as income and then we dont break the rules.

if tan was to convert it all then we would be fine for this year but then next year we would still be losing money each month and then tan would have to put his own money in further to keep us afloat but this time he would make nothig from it and would be like burning money, and if he didnt do it then we breach FFP

at least the way we are currently we are getting the most advantageous scenario for both club and from tan.

like i said unless i am wrong which is likely i am

our out goings are not more than our in coming s last season and thus season will be an opperating profit especially this season with players sales

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:46 pm

Colourblind wrote:So Tan is reneging on his promise to turn debt to equity eh. But supporters ( or the vast majority of them anyway ) are quite prepared to renege on accepting the red shirts in return for Tan saving us from administration and/or liquidation and spending money on new players. Can't see the difference myself.


When did any supporters group or representative ever say that they would accept the rebrand?

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:48 pm

Barry Chuckle wrote:
Colourblind wrote:So Tan is reneging on his promise to turn debt to equity eh. But supporters ( or the vast majority of them anyway ) are quite prepared to renege on accepting the red shirts in return for Tan saving us from administration and/or liquidation and spending money on new players. Can't see the difference myself.


When did any supporters group or representative ever say that they would accept the rebrand?

Who ever was at the meetings first of all

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:52 pm

Nope, I don't recall anyone representing any supporter group ever saying that they would accept a rebrand - mainly because the vast majority of fans didn't want to see it implemented.

They may have been one or two individuals giving their views, but that certainly doesn't represent the fan base & therefore colourblind cannot use the term "vast majority" of supporters are reneging on some sort of mythical "deal".

In fact, if you look back at minutes from these said meeting from The Lone Gunman, he confirms that all views given are individual views and are not representing anyone but themselves.

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:54 pm

Barry Chuckle wrote:Nope, I don't recall anyone representing any supporter group ever saying that they would accept a rebrand - mainly because the vast majority of fans didn't want to see it implemented.

They may have been one or two individuals giving their views, but that certainly doesn't represent the fan base & therefore colourblind cannot use the term "vast majority" of supporters are reneging on some sort of mythical "deal".

Cardiff city supporters club and other so called fan leaders did on supporters behalf ,been done to death this tho

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:57 pm

No. As I've already said once, if you look back at the meeting report, it was confirmed that the views given by individuals were of those of the individual only and not representing any supporters group.

CCSC have never backed the rebrand as a supporters entity, nor have the trust.. So to say the vast majority of supporters like Colorblind did, is wholly incorrect, in my mind.

The Lone Gunman wrote:
In my report for CCMB dated 08/05/2012, I wrote:

"A straw poll of the thirteen supporters present was conducted on the subject of the changes to the club's colours and badge. One was in favour; two were indifferent, while the remainder were opposed and in some cases very strongly opposed. However, it was acknowledged by all present that the views of those attending the meeting were not necessarily representative of the fanbase as a whole."

I further clarified that point in a blog piece I wrote on 03/06/2012:

"Towards the end of the meeting on 8 May, a straw poll of the thirteen fans in attendance was held on the subject of the re-branding. This poll was conducted by club officials on the clear understanding of all present that the opinions being expressed were personal and in no way representative of the membership of the Cardiff City Supporters’ Club, the Cardiff City Supporters’ Trust, the Cardiff City Away Travel Group or the club’s wider fanbase."


So in the meetings you mentioned, the vast majority were against the rebranding & this was not official comments about it from the supporters groups.

So as I said, to suggest (like colourblind did) that the vast majority fan base accepted the rebrand with no problems, is wholly innacurate.

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:02 pm

Barry Chuckle wrote:Nope, I don't recall anyone representing any supporter group ever saying that they would accept a rebrand - mainly because the vast majority of fans didn't want to see it implemented.

They may have been one or two individuals giving their views, but that certainly doesn't represent the fan base & therefore colourblind cannot use the term "vast majority" of supporters are reneging on some sort of mythical "deal".

In fact, if you look back at minutes from these said meeting from The Lone Gunman, he confirms that all views given are individual views and are not representing anyone but themselves.


MAY 2012
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=151624

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:04 pm

That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:07 pm

wez1927 wrote:
Forever Blue wrote:
Barry Chuckle wrote:Nope, I don't recall anyone representing any supporter group ever saying that they would accept a rebrand - mainly because the vast majority of fans didn't want to see it implemented.

They may have been one or two individuals giving their views, but that certainly doesn't represent the fan base & therefore colourblind cannot use the term "vast majority" of supporters are reneging on some sort of mythical "deal".

In fact, if you look back at minutes from these said meeting from The Lone Gunman, he confirms that all views given are individual views and are not representing anyone but themselves.


MAY 2012
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=151624

That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?


Wez, Gwyn was the main speaker in the room on both occasions, a few sat on the fence,a few got slaughtered for saying NO,Even tears from Tracey Marsh,

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:08 pm

wez1927 wrote:That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?


Wez1927 wrote:That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?



The Lone Gunman wrote:
In my report for CCMB dated 08/05/2012, I wrote:

"A straw poll of the thirteen supporters present was conducted on the subject of the changes to the club's colours and badge. One was in favour; two were indifferent, while the remainder were opposed and in some cases very strongly opposed. However, it was acknowledged by all present that the views of those attending the meeting were not necessarily representative of the fanbase as a whole."

I further clarified that point in a blog piece I wrote on 03/06/2012:

"Towards the end of the meeting on 8 May, a straw poll of the thirteen fans in attendance was held on the subject of the re-branding. This poll was conducted by club officials on the clear understanding of all present that the opinions being expressed were personal and in no way representative of the membership of the Cardiff City Supporters’ Club, the Cardiff City Supporters’ Trust, the Cardiff City Away Travel Group or the club’s wider fanbase."


So in the meetings you mentioned, the vast majority were against the rebranding & this was not official comments about it from the supporters groups.

So as I said, to suggest (like colourblind did) that the vast majority fan base accepted the rebrand with no problems, is wholly innacurate.

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:34 pm

here we go round the mulberry bush the mulberry bush the mulberry bush here we go round the mulberry bush all the fu..ing time
:bluescarf:

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:43 pm

Can we just clarify a few things raised in this thread

The debt due to Vincent Tan is very clearly debt .It does not become so only when he or his executors (should he die)demands repayment of it. The only way it ceases to be debt is if either waives the debt or converts it into shares.

Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Limited made a profit while in the Premier League(I expect it to be in the range
£10m to £15m when the May 2014 accounts are published).But it will make a loss this season(depending on cup runs and league attendances probably between £3m and £5m).This is due to the loss of Sky TV income and it's replacement by a far lower parachute payment.

A conversion of debt into shares makes no difference to the FFP compliance provided the club stays within the allowed annual loss figure,which was recently substantially increased to £13m a season

Keith

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:44 pm

ccfcsince62 wrote:Can we just clarify a few things raised in this thread

The debt due to Vincent Tan is very clearly debt .It does not become so only when he or his executors (should he die)demands repayment of it. The only way it ceases to be debt is if either waives the debt or converts it into shares.

Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Limited made a profit while in the Premier League(I expect it to be in the range
£10m to £15m when the May 2014 accounts are published).But it will make a loss this season(depending on cup runs and league attendances probably between £3m and £5m).This is due to the loss of Sky TV income and it's replacement by a far lower parachute payment.

A conversion of debt into shares makes no difference to the FFP compliance provided the club stays within the allowed annual loss figure,which was recently substantially increased to £13m a season

Keith



Cheers Keith :ayatollah:

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:47 pm

wez1927 wrote:
jezzy666 wrote:can anyone correct me if im wrogn but if tan converts debt to equity right now its a very bad thing and will leave us at risk of FFP breaches?

currently our outgoings are more than whats coming in and if it wasnt for tans montly input we would be breaching FFP. so by tan doing this and putting money it it classes as income and then we dont break the rules.

if tan was to convert it all then we would be fine for this year but then next year we would still be losing money each month and then tan would have to put his own money in further to keep us afloat but this time he would make nothig from it and would be like burning money, and if he didnt do it then we breach FFP

at least the way we are currently we are getting the most advantageous scenario for both club and from tan.

like i said unless i am wrong which is likely i am

our out goings are not more than our in coming s last season and thus season will be an opperating profit especially this season with players sales


Sorry Wez but your comments reflect a total misunderstanding of the financial reality at the club and how accounts are prepared

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:49 pm

ccfcsince62 wrote:
wez1927 wrote:
jezzy666 wrote:can anyone correct me if im wrogn but if tan converts debt to equity right now its a very bad thing and will leave us at risk of FFP breaches?

currently our outgoings are more than whats coming in and if it wasnt for tans montly input we would be breaching FFP. so by tan doing this and putting money it it classes as income and then we dont break the rules.

if tan was to convert it all then we would be fine for this year but then next year we would still be losing money each month and then tan would have to put his own money in further to keep us afloat but this time he would make nothig from it and would be like burning money, and if he didnt do it then we breach FFP

at least the way we are currently we are getting the most advantageous scenario for both club and from tan.

like i said unless i am wrong which is likely i am

our out goings are not more than our in coming s last season and thus season will be an opperating profit especially this season with players sales


Sorry Wez but your comments reflect a total misunderstanding of the financial reality at the club and how accounts are prepared



viewtopic.php?f=2&t=151634 :thumbright:

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:59 pm

Barry Chuckle wrote:
wez1927 wrote:That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?


Wez1927 wrote:That piece is just about gwyn what did others say ?



The Lone Gunman wrote:
In my report for CCMB dated 08/05/2012, I wrote:

"A straw poll of the thirteen supporters present was conducted on the subject of the changes to the club's colours and badge. One was in favour; two were indifferent, while the remainder were opposed and in some cases very strongly opposed. However, it was acknowledged by all present that the views of those attending the meeting were not necessarily representative of the fanbase as a whole."

I further clarified that point in a blog piece I wrote on 03/06/2012:

"Towards the end of the meeting on 8 May, a straw poll of the thirteen fans in attendance was held on the subject of the re-branding. This poll was conducted by club officials on the clear understanding of all present that the opinions being expressed were personal and in no way representative of the membership of the Cardiff City Supporters’ Club, the Cardiff City Supporters’ Trust, the Cardiff City Away Travel Group or the club’s wider fanbase."


So in the meetings you mentioned, the vast majority were against the rebranding & this was not official comments about it from the supporters groups.

So as I said, to suggest (like colourblind did) that the vast majority fan base accepted the rebrand with no problems, is wholly innacurate.


I was at that initial meeting that Dave Sugarman reports on here and can confirm that it is an accurate report of what actually happened.Within an hour of the meeting finishing the Trust canvassed a sample of its members by email
(I seem to recall it was about 80 or so who responded over the following 24 hours) for their views on the rebranding and a large majority were against it.After the issue of the "red or dead" warnings from the club,supported by a few vocal,prominent individual fans , a further Trust survey of its members revealed a more split opinion as many said they were afraid of the consequences of upsetting VT

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:24 pm

Depressed Blue wrote:"Mr Ranson loaned the club £2.5m under former chairman Peter Ridsdale at what was initially a punishing interest rate of 50% in its first year."

Who in their right mind signed that crap. 50% interest in one year?!!?!?!.

It stinks.


It was worse than that 50% interest was for only a 6 month period!

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:27 pm

TheRow wrote:The people calling for DTA obviously don't know what it is or indeed understand it. They are barking mad if they think Tan is going to wipe clear £120 million of debt for nothing. Barking.



I assure you that I fully understand the concept of debt to equity.
Why is it barking mad to expect Vincent Tan to honour his word and stick to his several promises of carrying out this conversion?

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:33 pm

Mr Moo Cow wrote:They are wasting their breath

why would Tan listen to half a dozen people


What half a dozen people?

Re: ' Trust calls for debt to equity '

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:39 pm

2blue2handle wrote:Not sure on the timing of this from the trust tbh, lets say Tan did the debt to equity tomorrow would the trust then distance themselves from any protests? If not then surely it makes them look a bit silly.


The Trust have regularly and consistently been requesting that Vincent Tan honours a number of promises that he has made to convert the debt due to him into shares , it is not a recent thing.

The debt and rebranding are entirely separate issues. The view of a large majority of Trust members is that they are against the rebrand and that it should actively be opposed